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awambawamb



Joined: Feb 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 11:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
To win, he'll need to score 3 times


challenge accepted.

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"la virtú sta nel cielo e nella terra, ma anche nelle nuvole e nelle stelle"

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Macavity



Joined: Nov 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 16:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Craftnburn wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
omg, Craftnburn! It's like I died and went to my 30s!
I quite literally have no idea what that means. Laughing


It means that seeing you and I gives him flashbacks to when he was young and virile! Razz

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When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up. -C.S. Lewis
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 16:59 Reply with quote Back to top

As a general rule, kicking first has served me well in tourneys with Elves, for the reasons that have already been stated. In pick-up games where my main goal is team building, on the other hand, I prefer to receive first, farm some passing SPP if possible, make sure I score with the guy I want to skill, and then if I take too much damage I can lay low and play for the draw and team preservation in second half.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 18:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
As a general rule, kicking first has served me well in tourneys with Elves, for the reasons that have already been stated. In pick-up games where my main goal is team building, on the other hand, I prefer to receive first, farm some passing SPP if possible, make sure I score with the guy I want to skill, and then if I take too much damage I can lay low and play for the draw and team preservation in second half.


Same with me in regards to team building. If I have two or three players close to skilling Im going to try and get the Spp they need first with a couple of passes and a TD. Im not going to hope that a 15 spp lino or 30 spp blitzer is there in the 2nd half in a pickup game.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 21:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
As a general rule, kicking first has served me well in tourneys with Elves, for the reasons that have already been stated.


No matter that those reasons simply do not make any sense, but yeah, if you're a good or great coach this question is kind of irrelevant anyway.

If you're learning the game? Or just not very experienced yet?

Then you should always receive first and score as quickly as 'reasonable' with agility teams.

The premise we always see is that agility teams defend better with 11 players than with fewer players. And, of course, that's completely true.

They also score and stall better with 11 players though, and, really, why do you want to give those 4 initial blocks against a bash team? It will make no difference if you get your 8 blocks at the end of the half/start of the half when you're already down potentially several players.

But even beyond that, that correct strategy is actually to score 'quickly' and you are STILL DEFENDING WITH 11 PLAYERS.

So really, you are saying you would rather play a 0-0 game defending than a 1-0 game defending.

That simply makes no sense whatsoever and begs the bizarre notion that having good or bad stuff is better or worse in the first or second half instead of having it happen with you being in a tied game or a game you are actually winning.

I'll take being ahead 100% of the time, and being ahead usually means you should have the ball first. The rest of whatever 'what if this!' you want to pull out simply needs to be tested vs. 'what if I'm ahead instead of tied'.

So... if you're actually playing to win, you should be playing to... be ahead?
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 21:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Licker, how do you account for good coaches who vouch for the efficacy of kicking first? Have you ever really addressed why your dogma on this subject has a massive blind spot?
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 22:02 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Licker, how do you account for good coaches who vouch for the efficacy of kicking first? Have you ever really addressed why your dogma on this subject has a massive blind spot?


I used to be one of those coaches.

Then I opened my eyes and saw the light.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 22:12 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Licker, how do you account for good coaches who vouch for the efficacy of kicking first? Have you ever really addressed why your dogma on this subject has a massive blind spot?


I used to be one of those coaches.

Then I opened my eyes and saw the light.


Is that how that happened? Man, real insightful stuff.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 22:14 Reply with quote Back to top

I can't wait to wake up to that epiphany one day and play differently from that point forward. Can't wait.
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 22:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Macavity wrote:
It means that seeing you and I gives him flashbacks to when he was young and virile! Razz


umm Ok...
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 23:30 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
licker wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Licker, how do you account for good coaches who vouch for the efficacy of kicking first? Have you ever really addressed why your dogma on this subject has a massive blind spot?


I used to be one of those coaches.

Then I opened my eyes and saw the light.


Is that how that happened? Man, real insightful stuff.


I've insighted on it enough elseswhere, I'm sure you remember.

Disagree with the premise if you like, I'm a convert, and with results (BB2 sadly, else easier to share here) to back up it up. But I don't really care much if you believe or not, it's made my record with elfs better.

I've still yet to see any particularly compelling argument about why it's better to kick (with the one team exception already discussed in the other thread, but that's a very specific player and team situation).

Mostly it's just 'I can defend better with 11'. Well great, but that logic is so completely flawed with respect to kicking or not that I just think people who say it have not really thought it through, or, in all likelihood, tried to play it the other way.

I will also say this, I don't think it matters that much for most matchups. But I do think being ahead of your opponent makes you more likely to win (or at least not lose) the game. That may be less true for AG4 teams, but it's still more true than being behind will make you more likely to win (or draw) the game.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 16, 2017 - 23:52 Reply with quote Back to top

You don't care if I believe you or not while you simultaneously find all other opinions unconvincing. Nobody has ever accused you of lacking arrogance, have they?
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:01 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
You don't care if I believe you or not while you simultaneously find all other opinions unconvincing. Nobody has ever accused you of lacking arrogance, have they?




But maybe you, or anyone else, can explain precisely why it's better to kick. And not invoke some bizarre 'if something crazy happens...' kind of rationale, which doesn't make any sense anyway.

The calculus on this topic is really simple.

Do you want to play for the best chance at being up 1-0 or not?

If you play your elfs to score in 2 turns (which isn't necessary, but let's just say you do it) then you have suffered exactly one blitz and are defending a 1-0 score with a full 11 (less whatever that one blitz caused).

How is it ever better to defend 0-0 than 1-0? In either case, lets assume your defense is successful. Now you go into the 2nd half either up 1-0 or tied. Who is getting the ball is different, but really, you'd rather be playing at 0-0 having taken a full 8 turns of bash against your team rather than up 1-0? Reasonable case scenarios for both are the opponent still scoring once, and you still scoring once. Congratulations, you're busy playing for a 1-1 draw, I'm trying to play for a 2-1 win.


Last edited by licker on Nov 17, 2017 - 00:04; edited 1 time in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:03 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
You don't care if I believe you or not while you simultaneously find all other opinions unconvincing. Nobody has ever accused you of lacking arrogance, have they?


Have you even expressed an opinion beyond 'it's better to kick'?


I did and you didn't read or respond to it so...

Quote:
Overrated how?

If I'm kicking first I have the following advantages as an AG team:

1. Full defense that can sustain a few early depitchings and still play defense
2. OTTD on bench
3. A kicker to place the ball where the offense is lacking
4. No downside risk of failing to convert on offense for a half
5. A fuller picture of what kind of offense I NEED to play in the 2nd half.
6. Upside of a defensive score based on matchup

With Delfs and Helfs you can control who gets hit pretty well placing mostly AV8 in harms way which is good enough to find your footing on defense for a turn or two until you decide what mode you're operating in: Ball attack or pitch advancement obstruction.

When do I receive first as elves:

When I have the MB/Guard advantage
When the opposing team has a lot of AV7
When I have an inkling that I can play offense for 5+ turns and not cough the ball up given the opposing coach and team build

But my whole philosophy has a root in the idea that you can win a game on defense and lose a game on offense. The mistakes you make on offense are harder to make up for even if you are a defensive mastermind.

There's no right answer per se but I find the game much more manageable if I don't have to engage in offensive tactics until I have to and instead can focus on a best effort to stymie the opposing offense with the luxury of a OTTD to offset a half long defensive breakdown.


You seem about as intellectually dishonest as you are arrogant so...
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:05 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
licker wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
You don't care if I believe you or not while you simultaneously find all other opinions unconvincing. Nobody has ever accused you of lacking arrogance, have they?


Have you even expressed an opinion beyond 'it's better to kick'?


I did and you didn't read or respond to it so...


I did, I said it was for chumps.

But the thing is, your logic is completely flawed. All I have to do is say do you want to play up 1-0 or tied 0-0.

And you will retort with...

Nothing. Because there really isn't a retort.
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