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Poll
Best 1980s cult film?
Goonies
27%
 27%  [ 15 ]
Big Trouble in Little China
30%
 30%  [ 17 ]
The Burbs
5%
 5%  [ 3 ]
Videodrome
1%
 1%  [ 1 ]
An American Werewolf in London
9%
 9%  [ 5 ]
They Live
5%
 5%  [ 3 ]
Escape from New York
20%
 20%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 55


mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 19:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
ph0enyx13 wrote:
ArthurWynne wrote:
Overall I think it accomplishes the goal of forcing teams to "use it or lose it" and not build up giant treasuries, which means big teams don't have bottomless reserves and small teams can't sweet-spot as easily, but there is one problem IMO.

The 100k cap is a little too low, it's a menace to teams with big guys or 60-70k rerolls -which is quite a few- when they are growing or rebuilding.

I think the cap should be raised to 150. If necessary I would rather the roll be more punitive to compensate.

As it is, the risk isn't great but I don't like having off-pitch randomness be important for teambuilding and it quite often ends up adding insult to injury for teams in a precarious spot.



Isn't the cap 290 not 100? Or at least your treasury won't end up lower than 100 as long as you don't go over 290?


Not quite, the EM starts at 100k, but you can keep up to 290 before Catastrophe is possible. up to 290 there is only a 1 in 6 chance of halfing your Treasury and 1 in 3 chance of losing up to a max of 30k

I think people are saying they would have rathered the brackets started at 150k, to 240k, 250k to 340k and so on.


Absolutely. It is mind boggling that they introduced this rule with it starting at 100k despite there being more than just a handful of players whose initial costs is in excess of that. Lord knows I'm loving this current iteration and implementation but I'm also generally avoiding playing teams where there is more than one or two players above 100k buy in to hire. Cause I don't want to trifle with EM preventing the replacement of a 100K+ player if and when they bite the dust.
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 19:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:

Not quite, the EM starts at 100k, but you can keep up to 290 before Catastrophe is possible. up to 290 there is only a 1 in 6 chance of halfing your Treasury and 1 in 3 chance of losing up to a max of 30k

I think people are saying they would have rathered the brackets started at 150k, to 240k, 250k to 340k and so on.



I don't see it as being that big of an issue before you get to the 300k bracket and have to deal with catastrophic mistakes.


At 110k to 190k you are only risking losing up to 30k and only on a 1 or a 2 so that worst case you are going from 110k down to 80k. So there is no real reason to try to hide under 100k. IMO it isn't worth hiding under 190k either because worst case you roll a 1 at 200k and are then back down to 100k, which is where people are saying they sit their treasuries anyway.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 19:37 Reply with quote Back to top

It doesn't take a genius to understand that there is unbalance in a match between a TV 2500 and say a TV 1600 team even if both are the same race, especially without the Wizard and all the other possible inducements, and inducements are not supposed to fully bridge the TV gap anyway, but just to increase a bit the underdog's chances.
Now, if that happens in a Major, where you can play only 1 team, it's part of the competition and you knew that in advance, if that happens in a TV matchmaking division that should arrange balanced games between teams and coaches may activate several teams, it's a problem for me.
I can play TV gap matches (here the most recent one: https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4000066), but I don't find them interesting (even as overdog myself) and not what I'm looking for when I activate in the Box, especially considering I'm not a monoactivating and team cycling coach.
If people want to play Hero Bowl they can do it in the Ranked division, but please let the Box be a true competitive division.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 26, 2018 - 19:48; edited 4 times in total
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 19:38 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Garion wrote:
ph0enyx13 wrote:
ArthurWynne wrote:
Overall I think it accomplishes the goal of forcing teams to "use it or lose it" and not build up giant treasuries, which means big teams don't have bottomless reserves and small teams can't sweet-spot as easily, but there is one problem IMO.

The 100k cap is a little too low, it's a menace to teams with big guys or 60-70k rerolls -which is quite a few- when they are growing or rebuilding.

I think the cap should be raised to 150. If necessary I would rather the roll be more punitive to compensate.

As it is, the risk isn't great but I don't like having off-pitch randomness be important for teambuilding and it quite often ends up adding insult to injury for teams in a precarious spot.



Isn't the cap 290 not 100? Or at least your treasury won't end up lower than 100 as long as you don't go over 290?


Not quite, the EM starts at 100k, but you can keep up to 290 before Catastrophe is possible. up to 290 there is only a 1 in 6 chance of halfing your Treasury and 1 in 3 chance of losing up to a max of 30k

I think people are saying they would have rathered the brackets started at 150k, to 240k, 250k to 340k and so on.


Absolutely. It is mind boggling that they introduced this rule with it starting at 100k despite there being more than just a handful of players whose initial costs is in excess of that. Lord knows I'm loving this current iteration and implementation but I'm also generally avoiding playing teams where there is more than one or two players above 100k buy in to hire. Cause I don't want to trifle with EM preventing the replacement of a 100K+ player if and when they bite the dust.



This might be a fair point. All the teams I play start with 3 rerolls and the most expensive player I would ever need to replace would be a human ogre or a Mummy
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 19:38 Reply with quote Back to top

its not huge, its just annoying. As mrt1212 has said above he is avoiding playing with certain teams because of expensive positionals. thats not good.

Personally I like EM. I tend to agree with what most people have said here, that starting at 150+ would have been preferable

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 19:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
its not huge, its just annoying. As mrt1212 has said above he is avoiding playing with certain teams because of expensive positionals. thats not good.

That's a mrt1212's imaginary windmill, a self-created limit.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 20:02 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Garion wrote:
its not huge, its just annoying. As mrt1212 has said above he is avoiding playing with certain teams because of expensive positionals. thats not good.

That's a mrt1212's imaginary windmill, a self-created limit.


It's a preference towards more straight forward team building and management. Not having to ever think about EM is a relief to me. See, I like to actually enjoy the game by controlling what I can do by myself and not prescribing what others should do to satisfy me and only me, but you and I are different in that regard.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 20:08 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
prescribing what others should do to satisfy me and only me, but you and I are different in that regard.

What I "prescribe" is just the logical consequence of playing in a competitive TV-matched division.
Logic is objective, not subjective.
Wanting to play balanced matches in a competitive TV-matchmaking division is just logical.
I could exploit the system by monoactivating myself, cycling tier 1 teams or even playing in Ranked but it would be against my own gaming ethic.
Anyway, although 100k step is probably too low, you can play nearly all the races without being hampered by it most of times.
At the moment I'm playing 14 different teams and I'm only struggling to replace a Tomb Guardian, but that because I failed regen and got 2 bad winnings rolls in a row.
Most of times EM are not a problem but yes they can be an odd nuisance sometimes.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jul 26, 2018 - 20:20; edited 7 times in total
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 20:08 Reply with quote Back to top

High Elves should have a bonus for expensive mistakes so they can be richer than other teams
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 20:32 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
prescribing what others should do to satisfy me and only me, but you and I are different in that regard.

What I "prescribe" is just the logical consequence of playing in a competitive TV-matched division.
Logic is objective, not subjective.
Wanting to play balanced matches in a competitive TV-matchmaking division is just logical.
I could exploit the system by monoactivating myself, cycling tier 1 teams or even playing in Ranked but it would be against my own gaming ethic.
Anyway, although 100k step is probably too low, you can play all the races without being hampered by it.
At the moment I'm struggling to replace a Tomb Guardian, but that because I failed regen and got 2 bad winnings roll in a row.
Most of times EM are not a problem but they can be an odd nuisance sometimes.


A competitive TV-matched division that only exists in your mind despite overwhelming contrary evidence that is both obvious and subtle. I am mono activating my fat elves to build the team up to ridiculous heights again. What are you going to do about it? I can't wait to get paired with you some fateful activation and drop 1500+ inducements on you and then play mostly to maximize SPP while you mutter about what Box should be.

EM subverts exactly what you imagine within the confines of Box by allowing some teams to not struggle with it at all while putting a burden on some teams to be full strength at TV parity. Is a 1500 Khemri team with only 3 TGs really equal to two full strength teams at 1500 over the course of 2-3 games? Is an Undead team with only 1 Mummy for 2 or 3 games really a TV equal above 1400 to another team?

Also, Logic invoked as you haphazardly do is a transparent plea for what reconciles with your unshakable and immutable preferences. You subjectively imagine Box to be one thing and then build this supposed logical framework around that opinion to exclude what happens right in front of your face as an aberration.

It'll never cease to make me chuckle that you earnestly believe what you believe is some universal truth and not just one person's opinion or preference. Tell me, is it lonely being the only person who knows objective facts in the world? Or is it fun not recognizing other people as people with their own desires, interests and opinions?
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 20:32 Reply with quote Back to top

ph0enyx13 wrote:
High Elves should have a bonus for expensive mistakes so they can be richer than other teams


I like where this is going!
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 20:37 Reply with quote Back to top

EM is a major improvement over aging and SE in the sense that it doesn't punish success. It is the goal of kids to want to become teenagers, teens to grown ups, grown ups to spouses/parents, and workers to retirement. Aging and SE caused too much arrested development. the game gets more exciting as the TV goes up...hence why 2500TV games have more spectators.

As for the "unfair" matching of 1600 vs 2500, let's be honest. 99% of the time that's not due to the 1600 being young or down on its luck...it's because the coach is intentionally holding back their development so as to gain an unearned advantage with free inducements. It's abuse of that charity.

now that overdogs can spend cash without penalty, they can defend themselves better vs those "gaming the system".

SE starting at 100k is fine. It rarely kicks in and when it does, it's minor.

I will however agree, EM should be coupled to seasons. My suggestion is for Ranked and Box season to end one week before the next major. You want a better team for tourneys? Stop sitting on the sidelines and play and play a team others want to play against.

It'll boost game volume on the site.

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razmus



Joined: Jun 23, 2017

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 20:37 Reply with quote Back to top

It does appear that EM brackets are currently adjustable by ruleset. It'd be nice, in the case of the Secret Leagues, if the brackets were set even higher than has already been proposed -- maybe 200k before EM kicks in? 100k tiers after that is probably fine, but 150k tiers wouldn't make me sad. There are several 'big guy' players in Secret Leagues in the 160-200k purchase range, and it's a little disheartening to get a bad earnings roll just to lose 10-30k when you're trying to replace your centerpiece player.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 20:50 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
I am mono activating my fat elves to build the team up to ridiculous heights again.

I will try to build my CR up to ridiculous heights, instead (too bad there is no CR decay).
This requires actual coach's skill and not just spending time and farming players.
mrt1212 wrote:
Is a 1500 Khemri team with only 3 TGs really equal to two full strength teams at 1500 over the course of 2-3 games? Is an Undead team with only 1 Mummy for 2 or 3 games really a TV equal above 1400 to another team?

We should check the rosters, but my point is that the game with the 1500 Khemri with only 3 TGs vs two full strength teams at 1500 will be more balanced than a game with a 1500 Khemri team vs a 2000+ TV team.
I never said that same TV means complete balance, but that TV gaps games are not balanced.
It's better to reduce as much as possible the unbalance in match-ups in a competitive TV-matchmaking division.
mrt1212 wrote:
You subjectively imagine Box to be one thing and then build this supposed logical framework around that opinion to exclude what happens right in front of your face as an aberration.

Ah, then what is the competitive alternative to Box? Ranked? Come on...

mrt1212 wrote:
It'll never cease to make me chuckle that you earnestly believe what you believe is some universal truth and not just one person's opinion or preference. Tell me, is it lonely being the only person who knows objective facts in the world? Or is it fun not recognizing other people as people with their own desires, interests and opinions?

It'll never cease to amaze me that you don't grasp simple concepts like: "it's better to avoid massive TV gaps to ensure a reasonable degree of balance in TV-matchmaking division".
I understand people have different opinions, desires and feelings about the same matter, but when they play in a specific matchmaking division there should be opinions' convergence towards balance.
Otherwise, as I said in the past, we could throw to the wind the scheduler and just let totally random matches happen.
Do you think that would make more appealing playing in the Box to the people?
I think not, and I'm deliberately exaggerating this concept to make evident that more balanced games are more appealing than less balanced games.
Anyway, if TV gaps must happen in the Box, then ALL the inducements must be implemented first, otherwise the lack of full inducements it's an extra factor of unfairness.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 26, 2018 - 20:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
EM is a major improvement over aging and SE in the sense that it doesn't punish success. It is the goal of kids to want to become teenagers, teens to grown ups, grown ups to spouses/parents, and workers to retirement. Aging and SE caused too much arrested development. the game gets more exciting as the TV goes up...hence why 2500TV games have more spectators.

As for the "unfair" matching of 1600 vs 2500, let's be honest. 99% of the time that's not due to the 1600 being young or down on its luck...it's because the coach is intentionally holding back their development so as to gain an unearned advantage with free inducements. It's abuse of that charity.

now that overdogs can spend cash without penalty, they can defend themselves better vs those "gaming the system".

SE starting at 100k is fine. It rarely kicks in and when it does, it's minor.

I will however agree, EM should be coupled to seasons. My suggestion is for Ranked and Box season to end one week before the next major. You want a better team for tourneys? Stop sitting on the sidelines and play and play a team others want to play against.

It'll boost game volume on the site.


My experience playing up 1200 or so in TV has shown me that even if you are approaching the max of TV, your skill choices and builds do matter and you can wind up with holes on the roster.

Like the Whalelf at 3100 right now has 2 Tackle players, no Strip Ball and a distinct lack of a reliable OTTD option. Oh and only 1 Mighty Blow player. The team is huge but is it really that good? No, it's not. It's very uneven despite the potential there and anyone afraid of playing the Whalelf because they imagine it's OP doesn't know how feeble I am as a coach or how brittle the team is against a combo of Bribes, Morg, and a level headed and confident coach.

Having the biggest team is fun in its own way but it's opened up the reality fully to my eyes that you can't simply outbuild your opponent and expect to have an edge on team when giving up that amount of inducements.

But I sure would like to make it work that way Wink
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