Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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 Posted:
Aug 30, 2018 - 15:11 |
 
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| happygrue wrote: |
The single biggest problem with the tiers, IMO, is that there is a pretty strong incentive to play the 2 point races and avoid the 0 point races. The suggested changes give people more ways to play without taking stunties. |
I think looking at the leaderboard some coaches have done very well using stunties, while the majority has avoided them, and that's probably a case of "working as intended"? |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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A quick response about the concept of adding 1 point per 10 games. This is effectively an alternative to giving 0.2 points per loss (10 matches, 50% win rate). It's an incentive to complete your matches even if you have taken some losses.
One of the important aspects of the trophy is that is encourages more people to play, and this is a low-impact way to achieve that.
For those who think it doesn't matter since you're going to complete your 150 games anyway, that's fine. It doesn't detract from your experience at all. For those who might be competing only against their closest friends, this could easily be something that gets them to play those extra two games to get the bonus. Or simply something that encourages people to play a couple more matches even though their team has taken a heavy beating and you don't expect a win in the last few matches of your run.
As for points changes, I don't particularly mind changing some things around, but I do try to consider what would be the "new meta" if I make a change.. The Amazon example I brought up in the previous post is an indication of this. If Amazons were 2 points, they would be very nearly a no-brainer choice at that tier. Amazons are pretty strong, especially early on, and would be an incredible deal at 2 points. Thus I don't want to change them. That being said, it's not impossible to do things like the trophy where more playing around would make sense.. The trophy is a bit too long-term to be that, but having something with faster seasons would allow us to do various themes (1 point elves, negative point stunties, or more exotic ways to pick teams - maybe you have to pick a "side" and limit yourself to a subset of races).
Anyway, I don't want to derail the topic as I am finding it very interesting to read what you all think. |
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doclystria
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 30, 2018 - 15:52 |
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I am not a fan this being a Major. Because in a ko tournament u always need luck, even a better coach get out on a bad or dicey day. Over 150 or 200 games luck isnt that great factor. Thats a great difference for me and imo not comparable.
150 games of 5 races are still fine for me. I like the -1 rule to push the stunties or I would like the rule u have to play minimum of 1 stunty team. The preferation for 2 point teams to avoid stunties is just like picking in Ranked. Stunties are good for diversity in Box. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Aug 30, 2018 - 16:08 |
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If you want to increase the likelihood that people pick certain races, rather than adjust their points cost, perhaps increase the bonus for being the best with that race?
eg. this way it would be worth more to win the racial for say goblins, than it would for say, orcs. |
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smallman
Joined: Sep 24, 2007
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Aug 30, 2018 - 16:10 |
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This is great for players in peak time zones, but not for the rest of us. Off peak, BADLY needs activation frequency reduced to an interval, that would have players bother to come together at these key times, instead of randomly trying and only getting 1 to 3 that actually try at the same session, for hours on end every day  |
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Christer
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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There is nothing that prevents someone to organize a tuesday night box activation recurring event or whatever. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 30, 2018 - 16:41 |
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Whatever happens, I'd really like the possibility to roll my squad from my unfinished run over to next season
Assuming they're still legal composition
I don't like retiring teams for no reason
I don't want duplicate teams
I would probably never play 150-200 games per year so I gave up, but without the limit on it I would be more likely to complete it
I played 61 games and my squad has been very average but I am attached to those teams and didn't want to retire them |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 30, 2018 - 16:46 |
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I like 4 teams / 30 games per team.
(Baller/Basher/Betweener/Stunty)
These categories have been discussed and fought over for years, so I suspect there are some pretty well reasoned arguments out there to assign a realistic category to each team.
I think one of the very best things about the race was the fact you NEED to play stunty to finish it. (Or something similarly poor)
At 120 games, I see no reason to stop someone from doing it all again after they finish it the first time, as opposed to allowing team re-starting.
To encourage participation, I would like to also propose two prizes, one FUMBBL based, and one real world prize.
My recommendation for the FUMBBL based prize would be a 'Scroll of Resurrection' that can only be used on a player from a Box Trophy team, after their season has finished. For a real world prize, I have a set of the original FUMBBL dice to contribute.
I would like to see the tournament winner have a flat 33% chance to win each prize, and if he does not, the remaining one or two prizes go into a prize draw. Each participant would have a certain number of 'tickets' in the draw, equal to his final score in the Box Trophy contest. This encourages participation, no matter what scoring system is used.
FWIW.. I'm fine with a smaller racial lead bonus, but hope there still is one to fight over.
Great contest. |
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fxiii
Joined: Oct 30, 2012
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| Posted:
Aug 30, 2018 - 17:00 |
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another idea for tiers: we used to play TT team tournaments with that kind of rules:
5 teams in the squad, 60 points to spend, knowing that undead cost 24 wood elf 23 lizards 22.... goblins 2 ogres 1, according to the naf 110 rankings...
sounds possible to sort blackbox performance for every races under 30 games i guess
just found the link: http://fumbbldata.azurewebsites.net/stats2.html
Wood Elf 556 298 86 172 61.33 1.24 3.13 48 11.58 1839.44 1795.97
Lizardmen 649 334 115 200 60.32 2.47 2.88 65 9.98 1835.27 1795.75
Necromantic 1168 562 276 330 59.93 2.78 2.38 87 13.43 1749.36 1753.83
Chaos Pact 469 212 119 138 57.89 3.09 1.97 34 13.79 1498.55 1555.27
Skaven 750 340 179 231 57.27 1.87 3.32 61 12.3 1661.51 1662.31
Amazon 307 139 72 96 57 2.09 2.43 35 8.77 1614.14 1638.89
High Elf 643 296 134 213 56.45 1.37 2.82 44 14.61 1928.06 1798.02
Dark Elf 408 183 93 132 56.25 1.63 2.67 59 6.92 1782.23 1758.01
Elf 350 160 67 123 55.29 1.22 3.01 36 9.72 1704.66 1697.54
Vampire 492 219 103 170 54.98 1.4 3.13 48 10.25 1862.74 1834.15
Human 832 343 205 284 53.55 2.28 2.58 83 10.02 1688.85 1692.98
Khemri 734 289 203 242 53.2 3.04 2.43 68 10.79 1743.39 1742.77
Slann 273 107 76 90 53.11 1.25 2.7 26 10.5 1743.08 1717.29
Chaos Dwarf 1535 631 367 537 53.06 3.17 2.17 113 13.58 1766.23 1746.79
Nurgle 1462 588 352 522 52.26 3.37 2.06 105 13.92 1908.1 1857.01
Chaos 1924 774 441 709 51.69 3.25 2.25 115 16.73 1884.34 1829.1
Orc 1060 426 241 393 51.56 2.7 1.79 96 11.04 1847.79 1827.64
Dwarf 1445 550 365 530 50.69 2.86 1.82 113 12.79 1843.13 1803.75
Undead 669 241 168 260 48.58 2.67 2.27 68 9.84 1650.85 1669.39
Norse 398 142 82 174 45.98 2.95 2.49 40 9.95 1633.42 1646.36
Underworld 297 85 49 163 36.87 2.42 3.53 39 7.62 1599.8 1620
Halfling 246 52 51 143 31.5 2.36 4.58 25 9.84 1397.76 1475.2
Goblin 511 89 88 334 26.03 2 4.26 35 14.6 1597.16 1621.72
Ogre 170 24 30 116 22.94 2.56 4.14 21 8.1 1777.35 1772.18
would maybe bring interest ? (maybe not if some good rosters are underrated!) ok after editing it's not very significant sorry |
Last edited by fxiii on %b %30, %2018 - %17:%Aug; edited 3 times in total |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Aug 30, 2018 - 17:11 |
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| Sp00keh wrote: | Whatever happens, I'd really like the possibility to roll my squad from my unfinished run over to next season
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There is a point to be made for this but then, the virtue of all new teams is that everybody starts off with exactly the same chances. How did someone put it earlier? "Gladiatorial purity"?
I guess making five new teams once a year and possibly retiring some or all of them after the event is an acceptable price to pay, even though it will certainly hurt me a little, too.  |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Aug 30, 2018 - 17:51 |
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| smallman wrote: | | This is great for players in peak time zones, but not for the rest of us. Off peak, BADLY needs activation frequency reduced to an interval, that would have players bother to come together at these key times, instead of randomly trying and only getting 1 to 3 that actually try at the same session, for hours on end every day |
I'm pretty sure if off-peak players had less activations but an increased chance of playing smallkosp you'd actually end up with less games overall  |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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| Posted:
Aug 30, 2018 - 18:38 |
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| fxiii wrote: |
just found the link: http://fumbbldata.azurewebsites.net/stats2.html
Wood Elf 556 298 86 172 61.33 1.24 3.13 48 11.58 1839.44 1795.97
Lizardmen 649 334 115 200 60.32 2.47 2.88 65 9.98 1835.27 1795.75
Necromantic 1168 562 276 330 59.93 2.78 2.38 87 13.43 1749.36 1753.83
Chaos Pact 469 212 119 138 57.89 3.09 1.97 34 13.79 1498.55 1555.27
Skaven 750 340 179 231 57.27 1.87 3.32 61 12.3 1661.51 1662.31
Amazon 307 139 72 96 57 2.09 2.43 35 8.77 1614.14 1638.89
High Elf 643 296 134 213 56.45 1.37 2.82 44 14.61 1928.06 1798.02
Dark Elf 408 183 93 132 56.25 1.63 2.67 59 6.92 1782.23 1758.01
Elf 350 160 67 123 55.29 1.22 3.01 36 9.72 1704.66 1697.54
Vampire 492 219 103 170 54.98 1.4 3.13 48 10.25 1862.74 1834.15
Human 832 343 205 284 53.55 2.28 2.58 83 10.02 1688.85 1692.98
Khemri 734 289 203 242 53.2 3.04 2.43 68 10.79 1743.39 1742.77
Slann 273 107 76 90 53.11 1.25 2.7 26 10.5 1743.08 1717.29
Chaos Dwarf 1535 631 367 537 53.06 3.17 2.17 113 13.58 1766.23 1746.79
Nurgle 1462 588 352 522 52.26 3.37 2.06 105 13.92 1908.1 1857.01
Chaos 1924 774 441 709 51.69 3.25 2.25 115 16.73 1884.34 1829.1
Orc 1060 426 241 393 51.56 2.7 1.79 96 11.04 1847.79 1827.64
Dwarf 1445 550 365 530 50.69 2.86 1.82 113 12.79 1843.13 1803.75
Undead 669 241 168 260 48.58 2.67 2.27 68 9.84 1650.85 1669.39
Norse 398 142 82 174 45.98 2.95 2.49 40 9.95 1633.42 1646.36
Underworld 297 85 49 163 36.87 2.42 3.53 39 7.62 1599.8 1620
Halfling 246 52 51 143 31.5 2.36 4.58 25 9.84 1397.76 1475.2
Goblin 511 89 88 334 26.03 2 4.26 35 14.6 1597.16 1621.72
Ogre 170 24 30 116 22.94 2.56 4.14 21 8.1 1777.35 1772.18
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These stats seem to indicate that Norse are still overrated at 2 points... but then, they also seem to indicate that Vampires are a bargain at 1 point, which wasn't actually the way it turned out in the current trophy. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
Aug 30, 2018 - 18:43 |
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Let's see what it looks like if you set max tv to 1500 (which let's face it, will be the max tv for the first 5-10 games for most teams, and is where a lot of people stopped).
| Code: | Lizardmen 1972 960 403 609 58.9 1.92 1.91 368 5.36 1220.83 1227.26
Undead 2491 1148 595 748 58.03 2.45 1.73 398 6.26 1212.98 1226.23
Amazon 1485 687 308 490 56.63 1.83 1.92 256 5.8 1198.44 1212.65
Dwarf 2273 1023 520 730 56.45 2.22 1.16 440 5.17 1219.15 1228.75
Necromantic 2839 1243 666 930 55.51 2.09 1.71 480 5.91 1208.5 1217.16
Chaos Dwarf 2727 1177 598 952 54.13 2.21 1.47 515 5.3 1210.37 1215.05
Skaven 1984 841 425 718 53.1 1.58 2.5 428 4.64 1185.55 1196.65
Norse 1691 704 357 630 52.19 2.28 2.16 347 4.87 1176.6 1188.12
Wood Elf 1418 605 266 547 52.05 1.17 2.41 363 3.91 1190.44 1195.88
Elf 1494 620 315 559 52.04 1.23 2.45 294 5.08 1205.67 1212.97
Khemri 1734 686 414 634 51.5 2.42 1.74 304 5.7 1205.66 1212.03
Orc 2995 1200 646 1149 50.85 2.16 1.17 584 5.13 1204.75 1209.63
Human 2239 887 492 860 50.6 1.94 1.85 400 5.6 1204.48 1214.48
Dark Elf 2106 836 444 826 50.24 1.34 1.83 487 4.32 1189.26 1193.63
High Elf 1548 595 352 601 49.81 1.28 1.97 298 5.19 1214.74 1218.62
Chaos Pact 1760 607 407 746 46.05 2.31 1.74 302 5.83 1201.48 1225.81
Chaos 1974 666 449 859 45.11 2.01 1.7 363 5.44 1213.74 1221.79
Underworld 1802 595 393 814 43.92 2.15 2.79 273 6.6 1182.6 1193.78
Slann 888 279 194 415 42.34 1.38 2.04 198 4.48 1188.67 1198.54
Vampire 1375 441 270 664 41.89 1.35 2.36 250 5.5 1180.92 1183.91
Nurgle 1846 544 443 859 41.47 2.11 1.53 353 5.23 1197.65 1208.02
Halfling 938 222 205 511 34.59 2.16 3.67 158 5.94 1099.18 1146.8
Goblin 1624 351 284 989 30.36 1.96 3.41 283 5.74 1168.93 1183.63
Ogre 997 186 206 605 28.99 2.49 3.4 209 4.77 1156.71 1168.1 |
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happygrue
Joined: Oct 15, 2010
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| Posted:
Aug 30, 2018 - 19:08 |
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| doclystria wrote: | I am not a fan this being a Major. Because in a ko tournament u always need luck, even a better coach get out on a bad or dicey day. Over 150 or 200 games luck isnt that great factor. Thats a great difference for me and imo not comparable.
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This is, IMO an excellent case for why this contest is so appealing to a number of top coaches. Majors are a blast, I love them, but measuring long-term team building and random matching over a large sample size is a really fun and really challenging test of BB ability. Maybe it doesn't need to be "a major" or whatever, but it's IMO the most epic contest on all of FUMBBL. It's also great that all teams start from zero, so there is no need to "build a team" to enter. Everyone starts from the same place! What could be better?  |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 30, 2018 - 19:49 |
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| Verminardo wrote: | | Sp00keh wrote: | Whatever happens, I'd really like the possibility to roll my squad from my unfinished run over to next season
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There is a point to be made for this but then, the virtue of all new teams is that everybody starts off with exactly the same chances. How did someone put it earlier? "Gladiatorial purity"?
I guess making five new teams once a year and possibly retiring some or all of them after the event is an acceptable price to pay, even though it will certainly hurt me a little, too. |
Current options:
1) play all 200 games in 1 year, season ends, those teams are now finished
Next season starts, make 5 new teams
2) play (for example) 61 games, get 29.5 points, season ends, those teams are unfinished, but can't compete
Next season starts, make 5 new teams
I am suggesting adding a 3rd choice:
3) play 61 games in first season, season ends
Next season starts, carry the same teams onwards. Carry their record onward too
Now have a limit of only 139 games in season 2, starting with 29.5 points
It makes it more accessible to coaches who can't play often, avoids the problem of people being put off by the required gamerate
It's the same competition, just a bit asynchronous |
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