harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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 Posted:
Jul 10, 2019 - 17:28 |
 
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Not that I want to promote topics by the OP (which is what actually wants), I feel my view to 'the system' being totally opposite.
The system in all probability IS flawed. I think most systems do have flaws...maybe all. My viewpoint however is the opposite. If it's something for your benefit; you don't abuse it, you try your best to protect it. I think the onus on us as hobbyists is to do the exact opposite and try our best not abuse flaws.....Do our best to make it the best possible environment it can be.
Add into that, this site is run by hobbyists for your enjoyment....that's all. Yet you look for flaws and ways to abuse the system. A government or work system that's flawed, I can see why you may wish to highlight problems.
However on a site where the owner could say 'ahhh **** it, Smallman isn't worth the hassle, time to move on.' Who's the winner? You? Yay go you, you broke it! Which, (not saying Christer would pack it in) you're getting closer and closer with box.
By only playing teams that highlight the flaws are you not cutting your nose off to spite your own face? Box is your place of hobby after all. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jul 10, 2019 - 17:50 |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Jul 10, 2019 - 17:52 |
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| koadah wrote: | Smallman's point still stands. Why didn't it pick the bigger team?
The same issue could sting anyone who plays past 30 games.
I would have thought that fear of running into those dwarves would be a bigger deterrent to playing Box than fear of running into Smallman's team. |
I dont think the teams the issue... |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Jul 10, 2019 - 18:12 |
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Never ceases to amaze me how many people pretend Box is supposed to be another Ranked division. That would be counterproductive and redundant. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jul 10, 2019 - 18:19 |
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| Garion wrote: | | koadah wrote: | Smallman's point still stands. Why didn't it pick the bigger team?
The same issue could sting anyone who plays past 30 games.
I would have thought that fear of running into those dwarves would be a bigger deterrent to playing Box than fear of running into Smallman's team. |
I dont think the teams the issue... |
I'd include his other team in that. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Jul 10, 2019 - 18:21 |
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| koadah wrote: | Smallman's point still stands. Why didn't it pick the bigger team?
The same issue could sting anyone who plays past 30 games.
I would have thought that fear of running into those dwarves would be a bigger deterrent to playing Box than fear of running into Smallman's team. |
Hi koadah,
My first post on the first page actually does show why it picked the underworld. I also suggest this may in fact be a flaw, and a way to change it.
However, that won't change the general problems in box. Agility gets wrecked by bash, people don't like to get wrecked, people play bash, bash gets big, whichever bash gets big first kills low tv bash, so low tv bash switch to killer teams and actively stay low to avoid the perceived threat of big bash, and now you have big bash teams, low killer teams, and people who haven't yet reached those stages.
Some people obviously won't ever be affected and so stay at a given stage (like agility or bash) but it still skews who plays the box. Can't fix that.
Also doesn't fix the true problem in the box. Orcs above 400 tv. I mean who ever allowed that??? |
Last edited by Nelphine on %b %10, %2019 - %18:%Jul; edited 2 times in total |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jul 10, 2019 - 18:22 |
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| koadah wrote: | Smallman's point still stands. Why didn't it pick the bigger team?
The same issue could sting anyone who plays past 30 games.
I would have thought that fear of running into those dwarves would be a bigger deterrent to playing Box than fear of running into Smallman's team. |
In general, most of the time I activate high TV teams during certain times of day, there are few issues because the mix of teams other coaches throw in usually include a high TV team that snatches them. Gaps of 200 or less.
During more slack hours though, when certain coaches are working a racket they enjoy, the propensity for gaps increases a lot. I feel bad about it when it's obviously someone who has no idea that it can happen and I usually try to liven the game up with fun and humor and sell it as an experience more than a game. But when it's someone who knows the ins and outs of the system, complains about the system, abuses the system for their own enjoyment...
I look at it as just desserts. Am I the final arbiter of what's good? No, obviously not and I make no pretensions. But it's so easy to distribute just desserts to smallman by a trap of his own making. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jul 10, 2019 - 18:43 |
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| Nelphine wrote: | | koadah wrote: | Smallman's point still stands. Why didn't it pick the bigger team?
The same issue could sting anyone who plays past 30 games.
I would have thought that fear of running into those dwarves would be a bigger deterrent to playing Box than fear of running into Smallman's team. |
Hi koadah,
My first post on the first page actually does show why it picked the underworld. I also suggest this may in fact be a flaw, and a way to change it.
However, that won't change the general problems in box. Agility gets wrecked by bash, people don't like to get wrecked, people play bash, bash gets big, whichever bash gets big first kills low tv bash, so low tv bash switch to killer teams and actively stay low to avoid the perceived threat of big bash, and now you have big bash teams, low killer teams, and people who haven't yet reached those stages.
Some people obviously won't ever be affected and so stay at a given stage (like agility or bash) but it still skews who plays the box. Can't fix that.
Also doesn't fix the true problem in the box. Orcs above 400 tv. I mean who ever allowed that??? |
Agility teams can grow and grow and grow in Box.
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=759098
Not the first time the team has breached the 3000 TV mark. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jul 10, 2019 - 18:53 |
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Yes, but it's not just a matter of TV growth, it's a matter of win rate.
Generally speaking, a coach is supposed to obtain the best achievable result in a competitive division, not just to farm a team for the sake of playing at 3000 TV at the expenses of lowering the win rate.
As far as I know, super high TV is not the TV where the agile teams have the best win rate in the Box, I guess they are better at mid-low TV where the skills countering them are less common (Tackle, Tentacles, Diving Tackle, MB, Guard, Sure Hands etc.).
There is diminishing return in stacking rrs, keeping injured players, and in not having an efficient team for its TV in a matchmaking division (private leagues may differ).
I could play my elves with 6 rrs and other bloaty stuff, but I would lose more games.
IF all races were designed equal, then I would make all my teams grow to super high TV, but, as the game is designed, it's quite pointless, if you play caring for the win rate. |
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Chivite
Joined: Sep 04, 2017
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Jul 10, 2019 - 19:02 |
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Different coaches get off with different aproaches to the game, you like win rate and cr management,others like to grow and develop teams to the limit, or just test different teams to see how they feel. Also 6 rr might not be a good amount on normal box games, but if you are building your team for a major, or any kind of tourney where overtime is a thing, then of course you want extra rr.
But when what gets you off is preying on new teams with min max monsters.... well, good luck getting people to give you sympathy when the system you exploit exploits you |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jul 10, 2019 - 19:08 |
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I am not worried about win rates in open play. If I win more than I lose, that's good enough. Games in Box and Ranked are functionally practice and experimental games for me. I get to goof around, try things out, maybe get over 25 SPP, and generally take a mental load off. Also I don't think I have anything to prove in open play - I know who I am as a coach. The reward of winning a one off game pales in comparison to winning a 3+ round tourney for myself.
I am playing to build for tourneys so that I have peace of mind playing any opponent in a tourney - I have some toolkit to deal with a situation. It's not about winning, it's about not feeling helpless or hapless against a variety of opponents in a specific venue.
Humorously enough, giving up 1000+ inducements in a one off game is perfect practice for what I care about - tourneys where I'll give up anywhere from 300 to 1000 in inducements. I get to see what other coaches are inclined to take and how I stack up against it. It's too bad that those who limit their experiences to just trying to improve their win % and CR don't get any side benefits like that. |
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Joost
Joined: Mar 17, 2014
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Jul 10, 2019 - 19:09 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | Yes, but it's not just a matter of TV growth, it's a matter of win rate.
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| MattDakka wrote: | | IF all races were designed equal, then I would make all my teams grow to super high TV, but, as the game is designed, it's quite pointless, if you play caring for the win rate. |
I think the answer to that is in your own statement. it's not a matter of win rate by definition. As you say yourself, "if you play caring for the win rate". Quite a few of my games are now with the idea of growing a team for the XFL / a major. Win rate is nice, but quite often now secondary to me. And I believe that goes for many coaches, who have other goals beside win rate. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jul 10, 2019 - 19:22 |
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If you are growing a team for whatever tourney, then maybe you have a win goal in that tournament, just outside of the Box division (and I guess you are making your team grow because in a scheduled tournament, where teams are not matched by TV, it may be advantageous).
That said, I made my Norse team grow to TV 2000 in the Box (before losing 2 developed players and dropping TV: https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4073337), even if I know it is not ideal for their win rate, because I personally find Norse boring (although greatly efficient) to play at very low TV. Sometimes I throw to the wind all the careful considerations about TV management.  |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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Jul 10, 2019 - 21:59 |
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I, personally, would like to see a 30 second delay between the Black Box activation time ending, and the box matches actually being drawn and displayed, paired with a small statement from Christer.
"FUMBBL admin have the ability to override the Black Box auto-match making process, and from time to time will be selecting the Black Box matches manually."
Even if that statement wasn't entirely true, even if admin never intended to make any draws manually, if it was stated that it was possible for admin (or even just Christer) to manually assign opponents to Box teams, I think smallman would just leave. He'd eventually feel picked on, and leave.
This is one powerful advantage FUMBBL has over BB2. It is NOT public, and it owes nothing to anyone.
smallman exists on FUMBBL because of thousands of hours of time volunteered for it's creation and management, and because of his trust in the impartiality of the system. I think, for the good of Black Box and FUMBBL in general, I'd be willing to sacrifice the 100% guarantee of the box scheduler being impartial. Most certainly if there were 5 or less teams in a draw.
I trust admin to be fair, and to do what is right and reasonable. It's why I play here. |
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neilwat
Joined: Aug 01, 2009
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https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4075943
Is this supposed to be the result of a really broken system. It does not look that bad to me as a result. You didn't even take an additional apothecary.
My dwarfs (my highest box team) often end up facing some beastly Nurgle. I actually find the challenge fun. If you have played a good amount of games you should be looking for different games to test your coaching skills so should look into a game like this as a challenge.
If these games came up all the time then it could be a huge issue but they don't so it is not really a big issue. |
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Gnomes are trash
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