Muff2n
Joined: May 20, 2017
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 Posted:
Nov 13, 2020 - 10:46 |
 
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Yep, I want a vamp with +2AV and jump up for the others to all feast on  |
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Java
Joined: Jan 27, 2018
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Nov 13, 2020 - 11:26 |
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| King_Ghidra wrote: |
I think you expect way too many blocks in your analysis. Even splits of blocks/blitzes/other actions is not realistic. |
Fine. I've made a handy colour coded graph that you might have missed 
https://imgur.com/a/MsYNUBX
The only time when AS leaves you worse off (in terms of injury rolls per turn) than BL is when you have 4+ vampires and none of them is blocking an opponent, which is frankly a ridiculous proposition.
If you look at the blanket pro table, the red boxes increase but the green boxes are significantly better (the curve is probably steeper).
You also have to consider that your team will be limited by seasons so having more than 4 vampires is a bit of a stretch.
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So even if we ignore all the other negatives of AS in limiting movement, causing knockdowns of your own team, failed activations of vamps and lost tackle zones, it's not even significantly better for Thrall health in any vamp team doing vamp things rather than playing like a basher. |
It is significantly better, the numbers don't lie. It is an objectivey better negatrait, but the streamers have said it isn't, so everyone says it's bad. Any argument to the contrary will be rejected.
The knockdowns are better than the stuns, because you get up and move 3. The positioning is easier and less costly, because you don't have to stretch out your thralls to the spot where you want your vampire to end, and if you're cage breaking, once the 2+ gaze (which everyone seems to forget) has opened the way, you don't need a thrall touching the cage for the blitzing vamp to feed on.
The initial argument was that AS is bad because you can't do what you want, but you can, and more so. It also supposedly causes more thrall attrition, but it really doesn't, so now the goalpost have moved to more knockdowns.
I don't know what to say to that, I could add that now you can no longer feed 3+ vamps on the same stunned thrall and that's gonna be another complaint I guess, but that was really great for positioning wasn't it?
All the while we're forgetting about vampires no longer disappearing, a few objective improvements in positioning, and the 2+ gaze that they gained for free.
I get it, it's changed so it sucks, but the numbers don't lie. We just need to adapt. Vamps are better now #vampnation  |
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Mattius
Joined: Sep 03, 2006
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Nov 13, 2020 - 11:30 |
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| steinerp wrote: | | High elf catchers and blitzers are worse than their pro elf counterparts at passing for some reason. Catchers no longer having access to Nerves of steel ever was noticeable but wouldn't have been surprising had I noticed that Pro-elf catchers no longer have Pass access either. One a positive I was excepting them to just give Safe Pass to the thrower rather than both skills that formerly made up Safe Throw. Still team is dead on arrival in opinion which was expected |
High elves i'd argue are actually at least the same in BB2020. A slight increase in cost of the thrower and that is it. Most teams have faced increased costs of many of their key positional players. Simply by not being nerfed it's a benefit. Still very much a solid tier 2 team in my book.
Vamps on the other hand i think is another question and i guess the play testing will prove it. |
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Niessuh
Joined: Dec 11, 2009
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Nov 13, 2020 - 12:11 |
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All elves are nerfed since no one could reliabily pass apart from throwers, and also pass itself have been nerfed.
Being able to leap over prone players could be seem as an improvement though, but I think that is quite marginal IMHO |
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Mattius
Joined: Sep 03, 2006
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Nov 13, 2020 - 13:34 |
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| Niessuh wrote: | All elves are nerfed since no one could reliabily pass apart from throwers, and also pass itself have been nerfed.
Being able to leap over prone players could be seem as an improvement though, but I think that is quite marginal IMHO |
This is true, but also other teams have more limited passing options as well now. So it isn't just a one way nerf. I've seen many TDs scored by passing longbeards, rotters, zombies, wights etc. That will be much harder now.
For elves it would be most common when the ball is sacked and a lineman/catcher etc would want to pickup and throw. So i'd expect elves to lose some of their win %, but I don't see as being a huge nerf in the bigger picture. Clearly we will only know once we get to play test. |
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kelvingreen
Joined: Oct 26, 2011
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Nov 13, 2020 - 17:05 |
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The other significant difference with the new vampires is that the injury roll for biting a team-mate is no longer capped at Badly Hurt. We can kill our thralls again! Yay? |
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Lyracian
Joined: Oct 29, 2015
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Nov 13, 2020 - 18:44 |
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| kelvingreen wrote: | | The other significant difference with the new vampires is that the injury roll for biting a team-mate is no longer capped at Badly Hurt. We can kill our thralls again! Yay? |
Not only that you could kill another Vampire now as well  |
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sebco
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
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Nov 13, 2020 - 19:16 |
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| Lyracian wrote: | | kelvingreen wrote: | | The other significant difference with the new vampires is that the injury roll for biting a team-mate is no longer capped at Badly Hurt. We can kill our thralls again! Yay? |
Not only that you could kill another Vampire now as well |
And his savage team-mate would say "sorry, but I thought he would regenerate!" |
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I like cheese but don't call me skaven ! |
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Twelfman
Joined: Oct 23, 2014
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Nov 13, 2020 - 20:14 |
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I would argue that it's much easier to end your turn next to a thrall than it is to start your turn next to a thrall. |
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sebco
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
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Nov 13, 2020 - 21:08 |
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At least, you have to play differently. In some situations, you'll decide to have a thrall next to your vampire cause you don't want him to do nothing and lose his tackle zones (so, as now, you'll play thrall before vampire), in other situations, you won't mind about if there's a thrall next to him as consequences are not the same than before. |
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I like cheese but don't call me skaven ! |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Nov 14, 2020 - 02:30 |
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Seems like 1 Vamp teams are the way forward! |
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“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Nov 14, 2020 - 02:34 |
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| Twelfman wrote: | | I would argue that it's much easier to end your turn next to a thrall than it is to start your turn next to a thrall. |
The end turn can be an issue if your vamp is rushing for the end zone and you have to move a thrall out there in advance. Particularly if he needs to dodge out.. |
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“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” |
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ph0enyx13
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
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Nov 14, 2020 - 03:19 |
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| Garion wrote: | | Pretty sure that vamp change is a place holder change until they get their own spike magazine. |
I'm thinking the same thing |
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mekutata
Joined: May 03, 2015
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Nov 14, 2020 - 08:32 |
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Khemri still in? They should do well with some of the new rules (minus Break Tackle change). |
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mekutata
Joined: May 03, 2015
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| Posted:
Nov 14, 2020 - 12:01 |
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Also, seeing the lack of revolutionary changes (so far), I don't see an issue with keeping Slann alive outside of GW environments. |
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