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Poll
Are you ready to come full circle?
Yes! Everything old is new again!
27%
 27%  [ 12 ]
Probably, I'm ready for some change.
23%
 23%  [ 10 ]
Maybe... I don't want to lose too much.
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
nO! cHaNgE iS bAd!!!
9%
 9%  [ 4 ]
I've been circling that pie like a hawk!
37%
 37%  [ 16 ]
Total Votes : 43


steinerp



Joined: Sep 18, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 18, 2020 - 20:19 Reply with quote Back to top

@pizzamogul League right now isn't there for much because so few "real" teams play but I am hopeful that an open/box league with regular teams meta forms after the changes. That is what I was directing my suggestions towards. Since if it doesn't form I am 95% likely to leave fumbbl again.
pizzamogul



Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2020 - 16:10 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
...very frustrating to potentially play a new ELF team in a random scheduler and find yourself getting pittance scores for hard fought wins vs extremely competent coaches using minmax bash at low tv where your team has nothing but raw stats to fight with.

I was thinking about the idea of using Coach Rating for the baseline again instead of TV, not to set a lower boundary this time around but for the actual points to discourage picking and encourage coaches to do way too much of a good thing. Something like this for Baseline scoring...

Baseline Points
  • Rookie: 8
  • Experienced: 12
  • Veteran: 16
  • Emerging Star: 20 *the new baseline*
  • Star: 24
  • Super Star: 28
  • Legend: 32

This adds greater weight to Baseline and devalues Scoring as I was pondering doing. The concept is that blowing out an Emerging Star coached team 5-0 (+9 points) offers the same value as a hard-fought 2-1 win (+1 point) over a Super Star coached team.

As I've mentioned earlier in the thread, I'd really prefer that the individual Racial Coach Rating was used if this is the path I decide to take, but that would require a change to the Match Results by Christer.

In the low-TV scenario you described that I quoted, this structure would reward instead of penalize.

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
...make only games played via the scheduler/in tournaments in the C div count towards ELF scores for C-div teams?

I would like to allow Open teams to follow the less-strict Strict rules for matchmaking, but again this requires some sort of notation on the Match Report about the way in which a match was arranged.

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
And on races - actually i think no agile replacement for slann is necessary at all, the "agile" category was already overloaded in comparison to the 3 before it, and if humans & stunties were split in half (into, wait for it, a humans group and a stunty group) all the groups would be roughly equal. Although it may very well be a time to regroup or even re-tier some teams...

Coming Full Circle could see the League going back to not offering points for playing against other Elves.

If we kept Categories, this is one possibility:

Opponent Team Categories
  • A (Plug & Play): Orcs, Dwarf, Chaos Dwarf
  • B (Better with Age): Chaos, Nurgle, Pact, Skaven
  • C (Bones & Moans): Necro, Undead, Tomb Kings, Vamps
  • D (Human): Human, Norse, Zons, Imperial, Old World Alliance
  • E (Stunties): Black Orc, Lizardmen, Ogre, Underworld, Halflings/Goblin/Snotlings

Or,we could move to "Tiers." Open teams can only score points from 5 Tier 2 races for their 10-game Cycle. Strict teams aren't choosing their matches so they don't face the same restriction....

Tiers
  • Tier 1: Orcs, Dwarf, Chaos Dwarf, Skaven, Undead, Human, Norse, Zons, Imperial, Old World Alliance, Lizardmen
  • Tier 2: Chaos, Nurgle, Pact, Necro, Tomb Kings, Vamps, Black Orc, Ogre, Underworld, Halflings/Goblin/Snotlings

_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2020 - 16:43 Reply with quote Back to top

So if I play a legend using rookie halflings with no trees, I get more points than an emerging star using 2000 tv dwarves? Nice!
pizzamogul



Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2020 - 16:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
So if I play a legend using rookie halflings with no trees, I get more points than an emerging star using 2000 tv dwarves? Nice!

That would be one implication. Perhaps the Baseline points should be flattened a bit more, 2 point steps instead of 4? Maybe that's too much influence...

_________________
"Don't expect mercy."
-Woodstock
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2020 - 22:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah anything CR based is open to abuse really. The above scenario with a racial legend on flings might even be less abusive than just picking one's games vs people one knows aren't as good as their CR suggests. After all, someone who is a legend on flings as a race either knows what they're doing well enough to give you a game in a rando match there or actively accepted that game in open, as a legend.

I agree with not giving points vs other elves (and was hinting at it), that category was historically, before box trophy, almost impossible to get points in in box and while i expect the strict scheduler to have more variety, it's also a category where there's typically huge stylistic differences between random vs selected play. Also, we're leaving the forest, no need to give points for recovery/into the leaves (Wink ) games!

As to categories, I was thinking we actually have enough teams to possibly even push in a "hybrid" category? Black orcs, liz and uw?
Tiers could work but i think we should wait and see how teams actually play before categorizing them based on ability rather than characteristics - I know we have a GW suggestion etc but I am less than sure on quite a few of their tiers already personally.

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DrClaes



Joined: Mar 16, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 09, 2021 - 21:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Hey ELF friends!

I don't hang out enough in the forums, apparently; heard about this thread on the podcast New Year's Eve session, I think. Big fan of elves even if I've taken a step back from elves in favor of stunties and trying to minmax amazons and norse in the box...

I like the ideas put forth above, Pizza. As you and others have noted, we will have to see how things shake out with seasons / rebuys as well as what is available in the data files from the game reports. If Christer keeps the database output as eminently usable as it is today with the JSON output files, I'll be happy to help implement whatever kind of algorithm you want. I will be following the developments closely as the Throne of Blood is still running in these final days of BB2016, and I expect I will need to make some adjustments.
pizzamogul



Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 31, 2021 - 21:30 Reply with quote Back to top

So my current thinking is along these lines, none of this is set in stone:

Points Awarded

Baseline:

Awarding points depending on the way your match was arranged.

Official Tournament match= +14
Auto-scheduled match= +12
Gamefinder/League Tier 1 match= +10
Gamefinder/League Tier 2 match= +8

Result:

Win= +10 pts
Draw= +5 pts

Scoring:

Per td scored= +1 pts
Per td allowed= -1 pts

Casualties:

Per cas caused= +1 pts
No negative modifier for casualties against - you've already suffered enough!

Bonuses:

Force opponent concession= +3 pts

League rules

For Baseline scoring, opponent races are broken into Tiers as follows:

Tier 1= Orcs, Dwarf, Chaos Dwarf, Skaven, Undead, Human, Norse, Zons, Imperial, Old World Alliance, Lizardmen

Tier 2= Chaos, Nurgle, Pact, Necro, Tomb Kings, Vamps, Black Orc, Underworld, Ogre/Halflings/Goblin/Snotlings

Your Mission:

Play any 10 different non-elven races and total your score for those 10 games: this is your Cycle score.

Only your first match against a race will be the one that counts, even if you play that race again and score better.

Special Stunty Rule:

Only one game against an "easy" stunty team will count--that's ogres, halfling, snotlings, and/or goblin--the first match you play against one of these 4 races locks your team out from scoring against any others during that same Cycle.

The Cycle:

When you have a complete set of 10 reportable scores (10 matches vs. 10 different races), your team is said to have "Completed the Cycle." Congrats!

You are now free to begin a new Cycle with your team unaffected by the previous one(s), or work to complete a Cycle with an entirely different elf team. Your team(s) can show up in the standings more than once in the same E.L.F. Season!

...

For Scoring what I'm wanting to do here is to set up the Baseline Points to reflect the way a match is arranged instead of the TV of the teams. More points for Official Tournaments, where the competition ought to be the toughest, and Auto-Scheduler to offset the disadvantage or your opponent not be "picked." A couple fewer points for Game Finding, with Tier 1 being slightly favored over Tier 2 races.

I'm wanting to bake into the system an "equalizer" for using the Auto Scheduler vs. choosing an opponent. If you get to choose, we want to encourage selecting the more challenging opponents. Maybe someone can do some database analysis and demonstrate that the "spread" between Tournaments and Ranked and Black Box is worth x or y points instead of 2?

Of course, this all depends on Christer using the API to note how a match is arranged come BB2020. I put a bug in his ear, so hopefully it might be a possibility.

The other thing I've done with scoring is decrease the 5-0 incentive by removing the 5+ TD and Shutout Bonuses.

For Rules I've done away with the Category restrictions. Now the first 10 different races your E.L.F. team plays is a Cycle. No longer can coaches replay matchups over and over to improve their scores within a Cycle.

If you're using Game Finder, the Tiers are there so coaches will be encouraged to select opponent teams who will hopefully be a pinch more challenging at most TV ranges... those differential Baseline points might need to be analyzed as well.

You still can't play multiple times against Stunties (now including Ogres) no matter how you arrange your matches. And now too, we Come Full Circle and don't score matches against other elves.

Will locking in a score after the first pass lead to more varied results and tighter races each season? I hope so!

Thoughts?

_________________
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-Woodstock
grant85



Joined: Dec 19, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 31, 2021 - 21:45 Reply with quote Back to top

seems like a great plan to keep going and move forward. the only bummer will be losing those legendary season repeating teams of old. but im game to give the new rules a run
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 01, 2021 - 00:38 Reply with quote Back to top

my main problem is that the 5+ TD and shutout bonuses are NOT the primary problem with 5-0 (or 6 or 7-0) wins. the problem is the points for TOUCHDOWNS. If winning 7-0 is worth 7 points, then anyone who picks games will ALWAYS be the only person who can compete for the top spot - you get 6 more points than a person who wins 2-1 (or 1-0!), and that's worth more than the bonus for the game selection method you used (its as good as a major tournament vs a tier 2 pick)

I'd really really like to remove points for TDs, and remove points for cas caused, BUT leave 1 point for 5+ TDs, and 1 point for a shutout.




For playing 'the first 10 matches against different race', i actually challenged myself to do that with Winter Whipsers for a few seasons.. it just led to me picking really hard on what those matches would be, because i knew the only way to compete for the top place was to win 7-0, so my first match against EVERY race had to be one where i had the possibility of winning 7-0. And for an auto select team, who plays 7 orc games, and 1 game against dwarves.. its horrible. You HAVE to play more games to meet those 10 races, but, you don't get any benefit for getting the crap kicked out of you on those 6 other orc games - you don't even get a boost if you beat your previous score!

As long as people are able to choose games where they have a 95% chance of winning, you can't prevent other people from trying to improve their score (especially if they're using autoschedule, where the chance is going to be a lot lower).



please note, my main concern is that based on the seasons that Winter Whispers participated in, the BASE competition for gamefinder tier 2 teams will be 10 3-0 wins (or higher)

with your suggestion that would mean that no other match arrangements could compete, except for people who can sprinkle in a few 3-0 wins against tier 1 teams as well.


Last edited by Nelphine on Feb 01, 2021 - 01:07; edited 3 times in total
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 01, 2021 - 00:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Suggestion:

Points Awarded

Baseline:

Awarding points depending on the way your match was arranged.

Official Tournament match= +14
Auto-scheduled match= +12
Gamefinder/League Tier 1 match= +10
Gamefinder/League Tier 2 match= +8

Result:

Win= +10 pts
Draw= +5 pts

Scoring:

0 points

Casualties:

0 points

Bonuses:

Force opponent concession= +3 pts
Scoring 5+ Touchdowns = +1 pt
Preventing your opponent from scoring = +1 pt

League rules

For Baseline scoring, opponent races are broken into Tiers as follows:

Tier 1= Orcs, Dwarf, Chaos Dwarf, Skaven, Undead, Human, Norse, Zons, Imperial, Lizardmen

Tier 2= Chaos, Nurgle, Pact, Necro, Tomb Kings, Vamps, Black Orc, Underworld, Old World Alliance, Ogre/Halflings/Goblin/Snotlings

Your Mission:

Play any 10 different non-elven races and total your score for those 10 games: this is your Cycle score.

No more than 4 of your scoring games can come from tier 2 teams.

Special Stunty Rule:

Only one game against an "easy" stunty team will count--that's ogres, halfling, snotlings, and/or goblin--the first match you play against one of these 4 races locks your team out from scoring against any others during that same Cycle.

The Cycle:

When you have a complete set of 10 reportable scores (10 matches vs. 10 different races), your team is said to have "Completed the Cycle." Congrats!

You are now free to try to improve your score, or work to complete a Cycle with an entirely different elf team. Your teams can show up in the standings more than once in the same E.L.F. Season!

E.L.F. Season still will be a given period (probably 2 months).
DrClaes



Joined: Mar 16, 2018

Post   Posted: Feb 01, 2021 - 07:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Hey!

I like the shake-up of the rules, but have some trouble getting my head around it. So... only first game against a new roster counts after a team starts on a "season"... so if I play in Box I might play a half dozen dorf teams on my way to having played 10 different rosters in the season, and only the first one counts.

I would share Nelphine's concern that this will drive some to more extreme picking of opponents in the division formerly known as Ranked.

I think it's a worthy challenge in the Blackbox (or whatever it will be called).

I think the bonus for randomly matched games might need to be even higher.

On the other hand, we don't know for certain what the new meta and new eco-system will be like after the switch.

I like that your team can have another run during the same season rather than try to polish off their scores as has been the case in the past.

Assuming the API continues to be as good as it has been before, I will not have a problem coding this stuff.
pizzamogul



Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 01, 2021 - 18:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Hmm.

I keep thinking the only way to discourage gross picking in an open environment is to factor in the quality of the team being played to the points. And with the current match report, the only real measure of quality is the opposing Coach Rating... perhaps my CR baseline idea really was the "least bad" way to go?

I wish FUMBBL used an individual Team Rating instead of an overall Coach Rating.

DrClaes wrote:
so if I play in Box I might play a half dozen dorf teams on my way to having played 10 different rosters in the season, and only the first one counts.


Yes, only the first match against Dwarves would count. Advantage to Open teams that could crank through their sets of 10 matches as Nelphine points out. I imagine Scheduler teams could count every match, but that feels counter to the spirit of the league in a way.

DrClaes wrote:
Assuming the API continues to be as good as it has been before, I will not have a problem coding this stuff.


Thank you again for you willingness to help with the E.L.F.!

_________________
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gamelsetlmatch



Joined: Mar 05, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 01, 2021 - 20:39 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the plan you roughed out is damn good considering all of the invariables youre up against until you have some actual data and games to work with, good job!

I get the impression that our beloved game has turned the focus from a Team and/or its Players and puts it squarely on the actual Coaches skill and ability

What if, we shadowed the team* structure of BB Trophy?
Open can just get over themselves and make due with 'what they choose' because the real bloodbowl is being played in the box.
How many 15 game seasons will a team burn through within an ELF season? ..will that kind of stick with a team instead of rinse repeat toss, be rewarded

As a side note
Legendary Players wont be very common, if they arent elves or gutters and chances are they arent elf legends, theyre elf killers! ..I think its in everyones best interest to assassinate these legendary ELF haters by every elfoolery means possible!
Cheers GSM

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DrClaes



Joined: Mar 16, 2018

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2021 - 06:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Not sure how I feel about not rewarding higher TV match-ups. We will no longer see the extreme fat teams of days of old, 2500 TV ranked games, but we will definitely see some end-of season evenly skilled elf teams breaking 1500. Again, we have yet to see the meta.
pizzamogul



Joined: Jun 13, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2021 - 14:24 Reply with quote Back to top

How about combining the two baseline ideas?

Points Awarded

Baseline:

Use the Baseline awarding the most points. If you play against Goblins in the Auto Scheduler coached by a Legend, you've earned the Legend 16 points. If you play against Ogres on Game Finder coached by a Rookie you've earned 8 points.

Gamefinder/League Tier 2 match= +8
Gamefinder/League Tier 1 match= +10
Star CR opponent= +12
Auto-scheduled match= +14
Super Star CR opponent= +15
Legend CR opponent=+16
Official Tournament match= +17

Result:

No points here, Scoring reflects the result.

Scoring:

Per td scored= +1 pts
Per td allowed= -1 pts

Casualties:

Per cas caused= +1 pts
No negative modifier for casualties against - you've already suffered enough!

Bonuses:

Force opponent concession= +3 pts

If we wanted to keep the +5 TDs and Shutout bonuses, we could account for that in the differential between the baseline levels. Examples below assume they're gone.

...

This idea above is to even out different play styles and really incentivize playing more quality match ups. I've kept in mind Nelphine's examples about extreme picking.

A team playing exclusively in the Auto-Scheduler would baseline ~140 points. Sometimes that team might run into a Super Star or a Legend that would bump up their Baseline points. If they average a 2-1 victory, that's 150 points.

A team exclusively picking Tier 2 teams coached by Rookies on Game Finder would earn 80 baseline points. Their ten 7-0 wins would get them to 150 points.

Say a team Game Finders only against Star CR opponents playing Tier 2 teams. That's a baseline of 120 points because of the Star CR. You'll need those ten 3-0 wins to get to 150 points.

What about the coach that makes it their mission to play only Legend coaches on gamefinder? That's 160 points. Lose all those matches 1-2 and you're at 150 points. Win some and you're most likely in the running to be Grand Champion!

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