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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 18, 2021 - 07:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Let's hop to it -

It struck me that given the different TV value of skills based on random or selected, it might not really be sufficient to think of team size in TV but also in skill density.

4 primary skills randomly selected = 2 skills selected purposefully, correct? Well, you're thinking 'is that player with 4 skills useful' and I retort, do you know how to even play BB with general skills.

I don't know if it will be significant because of accruing SPP sans certain skill combos that improve CAS odds can be a tad harder but, I think over the course of 15 games, catcher and blitzer types on HE can easily hit the 3 random skills mark @13 SPP, maybe not so much 4 randoms @21 spp. 2 purposeful, @14. Also, have to remember that @18 SPP one has to choose how to spend, so banking and deferring might come into play with SPP not meaning translation to present skills.

So this isn't that significant on just one player but across 6 players, that's 12 skills difference, which, even if you have a few seeming duds, surely you can fit the players to purpose and tactical play, right?

Also, at price parity 60k with 4 random skills + 1 selected @ 31 spp vs 3 selected skills at 26 spp is an interesting question.

I will obviously test 'all random' out and see how it goes, it might be a disaster but I have other ideas...

So when sizing at team up in BB2020, what would you consider of a team, given the random price difference? We have TV, Team SPP, Team Selected Skills.

Just some random musings before we get to take things for a spin.
ClayInfinity



Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 18, 2021 - 10:24 Reply with quote Back to top

This is what I am really looking forward to the most re BB2020... the decision on skill selection (random v chosen) and the timing thereof in conjunction with the ending of 15 game seasons, will create a strategic thought process that I will enjoy.

On the pitch, the game will be 90% the same with a few meta considerations like DF purchase vs apoth vs Asst Coaches... but largely the game is the same (passing rules excepted).

I think game play will also be actually more unique as you will come up against more shadowing or dauntless linemen and the lack of stat freaks will also see teams be closer to their designed build and hence the variablity will be "lower" but at the same time, coaching skill will be increasingly more important. (i.e. a less than average coach can still do wonders with the +ST +AG Wardancer)

I think your random musings match mine....
gamelsetlmatch



Joined: Mar 05, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 18, 2021 - 11:43 Reply with quote Back to top

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Last edited by gamelsetlmatch on Feb 19, 2021 - 22:42; edited 1 time in total
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Feb 18, 2021 - 12:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I think there will be a variation with race and position.

For example my Dark Elf Blitzers will all buy Dodge as first skill. Most are likely to then hoard SPP to I can carry them over cheap into Season X+1 and then spend it all after the first game.

Where as Halflings and Goblins are going to be spending 6 SPP on random Secondary skills. There are lots of good General skills and I can just fire any that get skills I do not want (shadowing for instance). That way I get a Sure Hands or Block fling for 50k; Goblin 60k. Treemen will get block, maybe Guard and then save up for +MV.


Last edited by Lyracian on Feb 18, 2021 - 12:24; edited 1 time in total
Cyrus-Havoc



Joined: Sep 15, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 18, 2021 - 12:21 Reply with quote Back to top

For those teams that get mutations as random primary could be interesting & different.

I was thinking of not drafting any +st or +ag on my existing teams but as they are much harder to get in 2020 I am re-thinking that.

Can't see many players being drafted for a 3rd season but 2nd season seems to allow for quiet a few to be drafted.

Another option I can see being used is a clean sweep or nearly so giving you a bigger budget for a 'new' team.

Re-drafting at less than 15 games is another thing we may see. I have a 14 game Lizardmen team that's got 2 Saurus missing the next game for instance.

Looking forward to it anyway lots of new ideas to try!

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Feb 18, 2021 - 12:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Cyrus-Havoc wrote:

I was thinking of not drafting any +st or +ag on my existing teams but as they are much harder to get in 2020 I am re-thinking that.

I was going the other way and actually took +ST on a player with the plan to redraft them so they would stand out in the new meta. Redraft a stat freak and then come back a year later and they may be a very unique player.

Cyrus-Havoc wrote:

Can't see many players being drafted for a 3rd season but 2nd season seems to allow for quiet a few to be drafted.

One of the things that has not been discussed is that the progression for Season One and Season X+1 are very different. You starting point and option for taking random skills are different.

My expectation is that most players will have a 2-3 season life. On teams with 4 Blitzers you will want to have two Rookie to skill up this season and two Vets (which might only be 1-2 skills depending on team) that you rehired. Perhaps one of those will then get hired for Season 3 along with one of this seasons Rookies to give you two skilled players going into the next season.

I know for Skaven I am expecting to carry over 3 Gutters into Season 2 and can then take random mutations on #4 as first skill. They either get a good mutation and can be built around or get fired and replaced with another rookie.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2021 - 05:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Lyracian wrote:
Cyrus-Havoc wrote:

I was thinking of not drafting any +st or +ag on my existing teams but as they are much harder to get in 2020 I am re-thinking that.

I was going the other way and actually took +ST on a player with the plan to redraft them so they would stand out in the new meta. Redraft a stat freak and then come back a year later and they may be a very unique player.

Cyrus-Havoc wrote:

Can't see many players being drafted for a 3rd season but 2nd season seems to allow for quiet a few to be drafted.

One of the things that has not been discussed is that the progression for Season One and Season X+1 are very different. You starting point and option for taking random skills are different.

My expectation is that most players will have a 2-3 season life. On teams with 4 Blitzers you will want to have two Rookie to skill up this season and two Vets (which might only be 1-2 skills depending on team) that you rehired. Perhaps one of those will then get hired for Season 3 along with one of this seasons Rookies to give you two skilled players going into the next season.

I know for Skaven I am expecting to carry over 3 Gutters into Season 2 and can then take random mutations on #4 as first skill. They either get a good mutation and can be built around or get fired and replaced with another rookie.


Love this post!

I was talking about this with Bazakastine, how with woodelves, I really wanna give a single Stud Wardancer with a bunch of fodder + catcher? and just keep rolling over the Stud Wardancer until they're way too expensive and develop a new one concurrent with the last season of the Stud.

I'd spec out +ST, +AG, Tackle, MB, Frenzy, Side Step or Stripball, with the Characteristic attempts first, deferring to take MB if you don't get either the first time, as the rules allow for that selection option. Haven't worked out the math on cost but conceptually, if it runs around 1100 TV, that's a one trick pony that can probably hustle a lot of games. And the nature of it being the one trick pony ensures that it will be a complete SPP hog which naturally allows for it to be tried in the first place.

On Season 1 vs. Season X+1, I think 2-3 seasons is about right. Really, given the seasons being 15 games, I really haven't even thought about Season One mattering all that much since I will be playing extant teams who will get past that relatively quickly. MrCushtie started a thread a while ago that brought up a concept I had about banking SPP on players, between seasons - you don't pay the TV cost of a player for SPP that isn't put to a skill. There are thresholds you can not pass without selecting a skill which does allow for some stealth development and seeing what the fates have in store for a player. Given that the different skill selections cost different amount of SPP (that SPP is a selective cost center is actually really neato, folks) one could easily wind up with some lucky Lineelf who hits 3 MVPs in a season earning them 1 SPP shy of 3 random primary skills. I suggested that one might wait and see until after the new season starts to roll the skills so you carry the costs only in the new season. And it might be useful or it might be crap - you can cut or keep either way and always could.

But might want to try the one skill and bank on catchers so that when they hit their stroke they can be game changers for the time I have 'em.

On Skaven, I'm thinking the GRs can get to 6 spp pretty quick so select wrestle or block according to role, then go for the mutation 2nd so that all subsequent primary selections can be leveraged. Storm Vermin, probably select primary for first two - MB, T and MB, G and that's all they need to be. I wanna try a Rat Ogre out of spite. Shoot for +ST, take the secondary like Block or a fun mutation every time you don't get it...and just win a lot of games to support the cost?
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2021 - 07:23 Reply with quote Back to top

I wonder if SPP banking is going to get nerfed by a rule that says you can't bank past the end of the season (or by getting really burned in game 16 when all your SPP repositories get murdered). But right now it feels optimal. Just very painful for teams like Nurgle. Or maybe I'm embittering myself by playing low-TV Nurgle in 2016 rules right now

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2021 - 07:43 Reply with quote Back to top

MrCushtie wrote:
Just very painful for teams like Nurgle. Or maybe I'm embittering myself by playing low-TV Nurgle in 2016 rules right now

Nurgle are still a team?
I expect my Nurgle team to have a 15 game counter to frozen death once we get the new rules. They can survive the first redraft but nothing more.

mrt1212 wrote:

On Skaven, I'm thinking the GRs can get to 6 spp pretty quick so select wrestle or block according to role, then go for the mutation 2nd so that all subsequent primary

I like the Wood Elf idea may try that. On Skaven I do not think +40k for a chosen Mutation is worth it but I would keep about half of them for +20k. That is why I want to take Random Mutation as first skill on a Gutter. I could possibly see it if I had rehired a Gutter with just Block and they then trying this after the first game of the next season.
Foho



Joined: May 05, 2020

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2021 - 14:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Stacking skills will increase tv more. Dwarves for example need A LOT of guard and mb. They will have to buy them at a premium most likely. The alternative will be to sack players constantly while trying your luck.
I think older team will rely on luck and Sacking, but newer team will benefit from consistency.
Making money will be Important for the later strat.
It will differentiate your important prices from the chaff.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2021 - 14:58 Reply with quote Back to top

In your opinion (everybody), under bb2020 rules will teams have a ball carrier with 2-3 skills, a killer with 2-3 skills and a fouler with 1-2 skills?
Or will they have players with 1 skill each, relying on spreading skills evenly across many players rather than stacking skills on just 2-3 players? Race is an important factor too, but I'm wondering how the rosters will look.
DrDeath



Joined: Mar 27, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2021 - 15:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Foho wrote:
Stacking skills will increase tv more. Dwarves for example need A LOT of guard and mb. They will have to buy them at a premium most likely. The alternative will be to sack players constantly while trying your luck.
I think older team will rely on luck and Sacking, but newer team will benefit from consistency.
Making money will be Important for the later strat.
It will differentiate your important prices from the chaff.


This could be a problem I think - bash teams like dwarfs tend to make lots of money because they so rarely have to replace lost players. So they will get 'shots to nothing' with more numerous random rolls, and if the roll isn't anything good they just bin the player and buy a new one. If it something good, they just got a good skill for 10k when other teams are paying more.

As if dwarfs weren't good enough in the new rules, they were arguably too good already in the old rules at low TV...They look rather broken to me now, lots of changes in their favour :/
Foho



Joined: May 05, 2020

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2021 - 15:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I think you are missing some points here :
1- dwarves are slower to develop, it will also increase their cost at redraft. Fully random mvp will make it worst for them.
2- Teams that lose player will just be incentivized to random roll for their chaff.
They will have much lower TV for their efficiency.
3- Scoring makes money now, so dwarves will generate less revenue. Making random-sacking strategy harder to achieve for them.
4- Your players are less likely to die then before from injury roll and you can bench them to heal instead of loosing them permanently.
5- Piling on is gone, so less death from that too.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2021 - 17:15 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
In your opinion (everybody),...
Race is an important factor too, but I'm wondering how the rosters will look.

For me Race is the big Factor here. Mostly the former; a few skills players surrounded by chaff. As the season progresses the chaff will get some skills to spread out.

For Dark Elves I was thinking to carry over 2 Blitzers and a Witch. Then the Rookies you train up in Season X are the three players you rehire for Season X+1.

Skaven have a lower base TV so should be able to keep Gutter Runners for for seasons. If they are spread out you can have 3 of them with 2-4 skills each.

Linemen on both teams will just take random General skills and get replaced if the result is not helpful. You do not have to skill them up as soon as they get SPP so can hold off until you get to the point of having cash you need to spend to avoid losing it to Expensive Mistakes.

Goblins and Flings though are just going to be going for Random Secondary skills all the time. All those General skills they could not get before are now available for 6 SPP and a bargin 20k value! These are the ultimate throw away players.


Foho wrote:
Stacking skills will increase tv more. Dwarves for example need A LOT of guard and mb. They will have to buy them at a premium most likely.

For me all the Blockers just take random Str skills and get fired if they do not get what you want. Sure if one of your players is lucky to get 6 SPP then grab Guard but it is those players that got it cheap that you want to rehire.

DrDeath wrote:

This could be a problem I think - bash teams like dwarfs

As if dwarfs weren't good enough in the new rules

If you cannot beat them join them!
Dwarfs will have a star runner who can just take Block and Dodge and as many players with Guard and MB as they can rehire. Each season they will keep rolling until they have more and more 80k Blocker with Guard. I almost wonder if they would be the best team to just hire as many one skill players as possible and not bother about having a super star runner.
gamelsetlmatch



Joined: Mar 05, 2013

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2021 - 17:50 Reply with quote Back to top

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Last edited by gamelsetlmatch on Feb 19, 2021 - 22:43; edited 1 time in total
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