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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 19:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Even in short private league play (7 games or so) the rules are not great, to be honest.
Top tier 1 teams are even better and tier 2 and 3 are even worse because there are not enough games to "catch up" with the starting core skills difference of the tier 1 teams. Random MVP doesn't help either, especially if the league is very short.
If the fun in BB is in "playing the game" no matter how good or bad the rules are, well, then the designers could have not even bothered to change the rules. We could be playing with BB1986 rules then. Instead, the purpose of changing the rules should be to improve the balance and quality of the game.
In certain aspects BB2020 rules have achieved that (see my list at page 1), in many others they failed.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 19:12 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Even in short private league play (7 games or so) the rules are not great, to be honest.


Heh heh heh.

I didn't even like most of the things you thought were pros. Wink

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 19:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Feel free to write a detailed list. Razz
ThierryM



Joined: Mar 27, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 20:45 Reply with quote Back to top

PEGI 18

Online gaming brings E-penis comparison for some.
Call it CR if you want )
I'm having many boners anyway when I play my favorite team. Did I forget a letter in their name ??

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 20:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Don't forget the Win Rate!
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 20:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd definitely rate multiple rrs per turn as the worst new thing. BB is a risk management game, and I honestly hate the "multiple rr in key turns" thing.
Yes I know it's a matter of saving them for when it counts, but nonetheless I hate it.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 21:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Mmh I like multiple rrs most of times, sometimes I don't, though.

For example: you need to open a path to score (with other rolls after that), first 2d block is a double skull.
Then being able to use another rr later on the same turn for the rest of the sequence is positive.

I don't like the multiple rrs when, for example, a bad coach starts rerolling pushes for no real tactical reason or because he messes around with secondary blocks before doing the important actions.
So, I have mixed feelings about multiple rrs rule, but I think I lean more on the positive side of it. I think that in most games I played it was a positive thing.
Also, Agile teams benefit a lot from the multiple rrs rule.
Passing is a bit worse, so GFIs + Hand Off help to move the ball more reliably.
On the other hand, multiple rrs per turn made Throwers and built-in rr skills (Pass, Catch, Dodge) less good. Who needs Pass when you can just GFI and Hand Off or use an Orc Blitzer or Goblin to pass the ball, rerolling the pass with a rr, and then using a rr to catch the ball?
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 21:17 Reply with quote Back to top

It's not a matter of the thing being positive or negative depending on how smart the usage is. Of course stupid coaches will waste rerolls and smart ones will keep them, so in a way a more flexible use will help better coachs and might actually screw the bad ones even more than now (they will be able to burn rrs faster now!).

I don't like the fact that you can reroll multiple things in your crucial turn. By raising the chance of having the dice you need when you need them, it lessens the importance of planning. You can be in a not-ideal position, and pull it off due to having 2 rrs.

I like my bb punishing. I like the fact that if I need too many dodges or gfis or handoffs or passes in my eight turn, even if they are all 2+, I am bound to fail. I like the fact that I can only blame myself for not planning ahead and *not* need that last gfi.

So, in a way, the reroll rule as it is now is less punishing. I messed up? If I was conservative with my rrs I can still do it. Don't like the feel of it.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 21:23 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree that BB should be punishing if somebody messes around and doesn't focus on the important actions to do (or if he doesn't play the turn in the correct probability order), while I think a coach should not spend 30 minutes of careful stalling just to fail due to a turn 8 opening unavoidable double skull then a 1 he could not rr.
That said, if a coach is bad at planning/wastes rr early probably he will lack rrs in the last turns of the game. Not always, but quite often, according to my limited BB2020 experience so far.
Also, multiple rrs help Stunty teams, they really need to be able to use more than 1 rr per turn.
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 21:29 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
I'd definitely rate multiple rrs per turn as the worst new thing. BB is a risk management game, and I honestly hate the "multiple rr in key turns" thing.
Yes I know it's a matter of saving them for when it counts, but nonetheless I hate it.


I do agree that this was probably only bad new rule with Wildly inaccurate in second season. Was also probably just written wrong and they didnt admit it.

Banking rerolls for one turn just rewards bad coaching. If you end up in a spot where you have to us multiple rerolls to score just tells you didnt play that good.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 21:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Multiple rrs can sometimes reward bad coaching, true, but sometimes they "fix" a bad turn not related to poor coaching.
If you have played Ogres, you know there is sometimes a turn of "mass Bonehead failure".
Being able to use more than 1 rr per turn helps in that occurrance.
Azur



Joined: Nov 13, 2020

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 21:57 Reply with quote Back to top

JanMattys wrote:
I'd definitely rate multiple rrs per turn as the worst new thing. BB is a risk management game, and I honestly hate the "multiple rr in key turns" thing.
Yes I know it's a matter of saving them for when it counts, but nonetheless I hate it.


100% agree with that.
It kills a part of the game.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 23:05 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Even in short private league play (7 games or so) the rules are not great, to be honest.
Top tier 1 teams are even better and tier 2 and 3 are even worse because there are not enough games to "catch up" with the starting core skills difference of the tier 1 teams. Random MVP doesn't help either, especially if the league is very short.
If the fun in BB is in "playing the game" no matter how good or bad the rules are, well, then the designers could have not even bothered to change the rules. We could be playing with BB1986 rules then. Instead, the purpose of changing the rules should be to improve the balance and quality of the game.
In certain aspects BB2020 rules have achieved that (see my list at page 1), in many others they failed.


Teams have an inherent imbalance and that is intentional so no mystery there at all, certainly not a good argument for anything. You play a team because you like them and I don't think the differences are that big to be honest. In a seven game season there are enough random elements that team tiers will be smoothed out somewhat anyway.

Everything you say is your personal opinion of what you like not what is an actual problem with the rules. I understand that you value the rules from a perpetual league standard where you play TV matched games. I would probably also come to the same conclusions as you if I did so.

You do realise that random MVP do just that... it gives a few RANDOM skills for your players that otherwise rarely get SPP such as linemen and the like... this is the whole point. If you could nominate players then your linemen never get anything (more or less), this is highly intentional.

The only thing I think they need to revise are the Wildly Inaccurate rule as that makes an already dangerous action in the game even more dangerous. If they just made the scatter from the receiver would improve the rule quite a bit.
CAB



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 23:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Azur wrote:
JanMattys wrote:
I'd definitely rate multiple rrs per turn as the worst new thing. BB is a risk management game, and I honestly hate the "multiple rr in key turns" thing.
Yes I know it's a matter of saving them for when it counts, but nonetheless I hate it.


100% agree with that.
It kills a part of the game.


In my experience it produces a few more crazy turns and can open up the game somewhat as a result.

It is slightly easier to disrupt the offensive teams that tries to stall as it is slightly easier to make a stab at grabbing the ball.

I actually find that as an interesting effect.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 16, 2021 - 23:32 Reply with quote Back to top

CAB wrote:

Teams have an inherent imbalance and that is intentional so no mystery there at all

Yes, but at least with old rules you could play Vampires developing Legend Vampires. Now really I find no point in playing teams lacking starting skills. Vampires have always been hard to play, now they are hard and not even fun because you can't have stat boosts and even getting 2-3 core skills is hard.

CAB wrote:
You play a team because you like them

Many people play teams because they perform, not because they like them. This is why balance amongst races is important. Something that game designers fail to understand or just don't care. After all, there are always people playing whatever ruleset designers spit out, so, why bothering to make good rules?

CAB wrote:
In a seven game season there are enough random elements that team tiers will be smoothed out somewhat anyway.

I don't think so. Strong starting teams have a solid core skill set helping them a lot, no matter the random elements of the season. The shorter the season is, the more the random MVP will have a bad distribution on players. If you play a team lacking Block (say, Lizardmen) you don't want to have 3 MVPs on a single Saurus or Skink. You are better off with evenly spreading of MVPs across all the Saurus. This is even more true in case of a short season, where the distribution will be more fickle than in a perpetual league. Moreover, even assuming an even distribution, the Season Redraft forces to drop some players. While it's not an issue with a team like Norse, with default Block spam, it's an issue with Lizardmen or Vampires.

CAB wrote:
Everything you say is your personal opinion of what you like not what is an actual problem with the rules.

No. It's objective and crystal clear that in a short season a tier 1 team with core skills and high AV (thus able to suffer less injuries and losing fewer acquired skills on the players who got them) is better.
This is why my Orc team is performing well.
High AV (fewer injuries, skills last longer), core skills (4 Blitzers with Block), easy Guard access, cyclable cheap ball carrier.

CAB wrote:
I understand that you value the rules from a perpetual league standard where you play TV matched games.

Even if I played a private league of 7 or 10 games or 15 I would think the same.

CAB wrote:
You do realise that random MVP do just that... it gives a few RANDOM skills for your players that otherwise rarely get SPP such as linemen and the like... this is the whole point.

You do realize that, given the Season Redraft (or short private league you like so much) I don't want to get SPPs on my linemen? I want my SPPS ONLY on Positionals, because they have better skill access.
Do you understand the concept of TV-efficiency?
Do you understand that it's better to have Guard on an Orc Blitzer than 2 random skills on an Orc Lino?
Strength skills on positionals have more value for an Orc team than General skills on their linemen.
Look, unskilled Orc linemen only:
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?id=1042628
Why? because for their duty (LOS fodder, assist/screen/tagger) they are better cheap and disposable. The skills are only on positionals.
Heck, it's even an easier skill building than in BB2016, you don't even have to think what to give to a specific player. Terribly boring.
It requires no imagination at all.
No more players like this: https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=12475154
with not conventional skill build.


CAB wrote:
The only thing I think they need to revise are the Wildly Inaccurate rule as that makes an already dangerous action in the game even more dangerous. If they just made the scatter from the receiver would improve the rule quite a bit.

Indeed. This is especially true when it's a Thrower trying to pass the ball. Wildly Inaccurate should be avoided or reduced to D3 squares.
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