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Spoonie



Joined: Sep 20, 2006

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 04:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I mean, you're acting like a 'purist', but the tabletop game was never designed to handle teams at that high tv in the first place. Nobody's tabletop league had 300 games played. It seems to me that they made the redrafting rule explicitly so an endless format could exist without diverging so wildly from the 'actual' game.

It's fine that you really liked it, but it's not like I'm persecuting you, I just feel like I understand why they made the change and it makes the game better. I'm not saying anybody forced me to do anything, I just said I thought high TV was stupid. I'm sorry my mild satisfaction offends you?


Catalyst32 wrote:
And NO ONE ever made you play any of those High TV teams. You always had the option to opt-out of building your team that high or accepting any games against teams that high.

So YOUR PREFERENCES have always been available to you and continue to be there. Yet you roll your eyes at a level of play at the TOP of the game? Please.

Your lack of appreciation for the EPIC battles of fully developed teams and disdain for a few "lucky" skill rolls in a game of rolling "lucky" dice denies the game its true Major Leagues Level of play relegating the Sport(game) to Children's Recreation League levels of play.

How could a Sport so popular that it is played around the World in Huge Stadiums full of Fans NOT reach a level of NBA Basketball, Premier League Soccer, the NFL etc etc etc... but only exist at 1350 TV or so?

Why hasn't Renaldo been fired for being too expensive by now? Why isn't he playing with a new team of Rookies every season? Maybe it is because it is RIDICULOUS to do such a thing IRL and in the game.

Why do players have the ability to have 6 skills (sometimes 7 in some versions of the rules) at 100's of SPPS if the game is not MEANT to advance teams towards that HIGH TV?

Nobody has ever tried to hinder YOUR FUN. But you cheerlead for hindering the fun of others. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


Spoonie wrote:
Yeah I just plain disagree with all that. I never liked the fact that online bloodbowl had an endless infinite bloat style default game mode in the first place. I feel like redrafting and the level up system get rid of a lot of stuff I really just didn't care for about playing the game in an online setting.

Your MONSTER LEGEND status is riding on the team name, I suppose. How teams play getting totally turned upside down at high tv combined with the random stat rolls made it always feel to me that the most defining feature of teams was how many carefully groomed game breaking stat freaks they had.

With the new systems, you avoid things like chaos going from blundering doofuses to elite murder squad because of the fact that they have more good skills to take and infinite opportunity to earn them. And having things like a double +AG Bull Centaur or what-have-you that could really shake up the way a team plays has a direct opportunity cost instead of just being a combination of time and luck.

Overall my experience with 2k+ TV has been pretty much just eye rolling, I always felt like the game just fell apart and just 'didn't work'. So a little 'franchise mode' resigning of players and resetting to a modest TV sounds much preferable.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 05:36 Reply with quote Back to top

It is ridiculous to say that a game that made room for every single player to eventually have 6 or 7 skills which would eventually lead to teams at such high levels was not designed to be played that high.
It implies you believe they expected the game to be something nobody would want to play for more than 3 or 4 games before quitting.
It implies you don't have any concept of what Star Players, Bribes other types of inducements are for.
It implies you don't really know the game very well.

What would be the point of creating a Miniatures game with all of these teams to sell to then not play it?
What is the point of all the Skills if you intend to have only Block, Dodge, Mighty Blow, Claw, Guard, Side Step, and a few others to ever be used?
It implies you don't have any concept of Business or why companies would do ANYTHING that they do.

The game was obviously meant to EXPAND as far as you and the people you play against would take it.

And you can reach beyond the current TV limit in 5 very successful games. And easily past it in 10 moderately games where utter catastrophe is avoided.
300 games?

GW only does 1 thing every time they change the rules and that is, make them WORSE.
Sure they fix a few issues now and then but then they ruin some other aspect of the game.

This is another example of finding a Solution made for a Problem that did not exist.
You and your friends could always impose your own Redrafts for your Table Top play at whatever TV you want and even change it from season to season as your teams advance.
Or insist on starting each league with NEW teams or whatever you wanted.

The new season rules don't affect the Tournaments IRL at all.
And they still don't affect the people you play around with a Table in your Mom's Basement
And they still don't affect the way YOU want to play here on the Interwebs.

But they are going to make playing nearly any team I have ever played and spent my time on unplayable anymore.
They weren't built to be trimmed down to play among the Rookies.
They were built to hold their own against the BEST TEAMS that can be built

And you say I sound like a Purist?
I sound like someone who has had their hobby and all the time they have put into it RUINED.
If I built model planes... they were all just smashed or thrown into the trash.

You sound like a sociopath.

Spoonie wrote:
I mean, you're acting like a 'purist',
but the tabletop game was never designed to handle teams at that high tv in the first place. Nobody's tabletop league had 300 games played. It seems to me that they made the redrafting rule explicitly so an endless format could exist without diverging so wildly from the 'actual' game.

It's fine that you really liked it, but it's not like I'm persecuting you, I just feel like I understand why they made the change and it makes the game better. I'm not saying anybody forced me to do anything, I just said I thought high TV was stupid. I'm sorry my mild satisfaction offends you?


Catalyst32 wrote:
And NO ONE ever made you play any of those High TV teams. You always had the option to opt-out of building your team that high or accepting any games against teams that high.

So YOUR PREFERENCES have always been available to you and continue to be there. Yet you roll your eyes at a level of play at the TOP of the game? Please.

Your lack of appreciation for the EPIC battles of fully developed teams and disdain for a few "lucky" skill rolls in a game of rolling "lucky" dice denies the game its true Major Leagues Level of play relegating the Sport(game) to Children's Recreation League levels of play.

How could a Sport so popular that it is played around the World in Huge Stadiums full of Fans NOT reach a level of NBA Basketball, Premier League Soccer, the NFL etc etc etc... but only exist at 1350 TV or so?

Why hasn't Renaldo been fired for being too expensive by now? Why isn't he playing with a new team of Rookies every season? Maybe it is because it is RIDICULOUS to do such a thing IRL and in the game.

Why do players have the ability to have 6 skills (sometimes 7 in some versions of the rules) at 100's of SPPS if the game is not MEANT to advance teams towards that HIGH TV?

Nobody has ever tried to hinder YOUR FUN. But you cheerlead for hindering the fun of others. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


Spoonie wrote:
Yeah I just plain disagree with all that. I never liked the fact that online bloodbowl had an endless infinite bloat style default game mode in the first place. I feel like redrafting and the level up system get rid of a lot of stuff I really just didn't care for about playing the game in an online setting.

Your MONSTER LEGEND status is riding on the team name, I suppose. How teams play getting totally turned upside down at high tv combined with the random stat rolls made it always feel to me that the most defining feature of teams was how many carefully groomed game breaking stat freaks they had.

With the new systems, you avoid things like chaos going from blundering doofuses to elite murder squad because of the fact that they have more good skills to take and infinite opportunity to earn them. And having things like a double +AG Bull Centaur or what-have-you that could really shake up the way a team plays has a direct opportunity cost instead of just being a combination of time and luck.

Overall my experience with 2k+ TV has been pretty much just eye rolling, I always felt like the game just fell apart and just 'didn't work'. So a little 'franchise mode' resigning of players and resetting to a modest TV sounds much preferable.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 10:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
You sound like a sociopath.


You sound like a lovely chap.



p.s. the existence of 300 matches old min-maxed teams in an open environment does impact how others (that don't agree with that) play the game, because they have to face those teams, either by scheduling or by tournament draft Rolling Eyes
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 12:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I agree that having 6 skill slots and not being able to build a decent player up to 6 skills looks weird. With a hand GW allows progression, with the other hand it hampers it.
I think that either the ruleset should have been made with the aim to play low TV BB many different races (some rosters start with many skills and are clearly better) or let people develop their teams, without making them too powerful. No clawmb spam, no super stat freaks etc.
This could have been achieved, I guess, by capping the MA to 9 (they did it), capping the stat boosts to max +1 per characteristic, introducing a max TV cap (somewhere between 1800-2000), and maybe reducing the skill slots from 6 to 5 or 4. No Season Redraft.
That would have encouraged less lopsided teams, instead of Stars & scrubs teams.
Random skill up is not a terrible idea but poorly made, in my opinion.
A better system could have been randomizing 2 skills and picking 1. Still random but there is a slightly increased chance to get a skill you can use with that player.

That said, it's possible, with BB2020, to use all the 6 skill slots, but you must take many random skills. With 46 SPPs, if you take all random skills, you can have a Legend. Yes, he will be a weird Legend with random skills, but he will use all the skill slots.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 12:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Alien_the_Alien wrote:

We also need to know their skill access.

I expect 70k RRs like Nurgle.


My guess is:

Bloodborn Marauders: G,M access;
Bloodseekers and Khorngors: G,S,M;
Bloodspawn: S;

70k rrs.
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 13:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:

But they are going to make playing nearly any team I have ever played and spent my time on unplayable anymore.


You could play with them in your basement against other coaches who don't make the jump. I know there are some Halfling Coaches who keep asking for bb16 games in discord. But maybe Gits should focus here on the KHORNE!
Which we should be able to play soon on fumbbl Smile

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 14:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:

And you say I sound like a Purist?
I sound like someone who has had their hobby and all the time they have put into it RUINED.
If I built model planes... they were all just smashed or thrown into the trash.


This is a league issue. Your problem is with the Fumbbl Competitive division.

Leagues have always had their ways of dealing with "too big" teams if they wished too.

The league commissioner can disable seasons, change the parameters, add more cash, have more or fewer games, impose TV/TW limits etc. etc. etc.

This particular problem is not the rules.

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[SL]2020 Rookie Rumble - New teams ONLY - Always recruiting!
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 15:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
But they are going to make playing nearly any team I have ever played and spent my time on unplayable anymore.
They weren't built to be trimmed down to play among the Rookies.
They were built to hold their own against the BEST TEAMS that can be built


Hmm your biggest Blackbox team is 1540, which will be totally achievable with seasons redrafting at 1350

Most of your ranked teams are ~1600-1800, with only one team over 2000.
So yes, redrafting will cut those guys down somewhat, that era of large teams and unlimited building is now in the sunset.

Don't forget that it applies to everyone else's large teams too, 1350 is not playing among the Rookies


Don't forget you can save SPP now before taking the skillups. So part of season management could be about delaying skillups until the new season, to make redrafting those players cheaper
Doing this will potentially allow teams to re-inflate faster after being cut down.
Also can drop and then rebuy your rerolls


IMO the new team farming is now not hunting for stat freaks, but hunting for half-price good skills on random rolls, and replacing the bad ones. Increased cash generation definitely feeds into this
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 15:33 Reply with quote Back to top

@Catalyst32

I hear you and I agree. I also enjoy the high TV game.

In my mind, the choice to keep games at a relatively low TV is purely a calculation by Christer to strengthen the site and have more games played.

I love Fumbbl and will give it every chance I can. With the new player leveling scheme, I may still enjoy the competitive division. I am going to give this a edition real a shot once there is a black box scheduler again.

I would be in heaven if the Secret League had a scheduler like Black Box. With any luck, secret league will make adjustments so that teams can hover around the 2020 equivalent of 2000 TV.
Gnoblar



Joined: Mar 01, 2017

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 15:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Can we get back to discussing the Khorne team? Rerolls will be 70k in my opinion because it's not exactly a sports team rather a group of psychos!
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 18:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:

I would be in heaven if the Secret League had a scheduler like Black Box. With any luck, secret league will make adjustments so that teams can hover around the 2020 equivalent of 2000 TV.


We can continue seasons moaning here

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[SL]2020 Rookie Rumble - New teams ONLY - Always recruiting!
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2021 - 19:02 Reply with quote Back to top

I hope the "favoured of" rule is something like
"+1 to AV roll if you roll two pows, +2 if you roll 3 pows"
Kransky



Joined: Sep 12, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 00:47 Reply with quote Back to top

We know what the “favoured of” rule already does - it’s simply a tag that allows you to chose stars and inducements.
Current Chaos Chosen already has it.
Alien_the_Alien



Joined: Apr 22, 2020

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 00:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I think stej meant - the unique "flavoured of" inducement for each chaos god, like Favoured of Nurgle already has a plague doctor. The next issue of spike will cover chaos stuff, including the Khorne team, but not limited to that. So we'll probably see starplayers specific to each god, but also maybe some specific inducements.

Realistically I doubt we'll see anything as strong as stej wrote, but it doesn't hurt to imagine fun overpowered things. Like:

Skulls for the Skull Throne (100k, requires the Favoured of Khorne special rule). Once per game, you may call the wrath of Khorne upon your enemies. You get two blitz actions during this turn.
Master of Destiny itself (100k, requires the Favored of Tzeentch special rule). Once per game, at the beginning of your turn, you can decide to let Tzeetch decide the fate of your players. Your next rolls will be, in that precise order: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6
You can roll more dice afterwards. Should a turnover happen before you use the 6 rolls, they are discarded and the game continues as normal. This doesn't include blocking dice or dice rolled by your opponent.
Changeling (100k, needs the Favored of Tzeentch special rule). Before each half, a player of the opponent team is determined randomly. For that half, you can field an exact copy of that player with Loner (4+), and you can't use your apothecary on that player.
For Pleasure's Sake (100k, needs the Favoured of Slaanesh special rule). Once per game, your players are blessed with the power of Slaanesh. All your players gain hypnotic gaze for this turn.
Festival of Life (100k, needs the Favoured of Nurgle special rule). For this game, every player in your team has the trait "Plague Ridden", and "Plague Ridden" doesn't have an activation limit.

Anyway. We'll probably get something useless like "one random player without loner gets frenzy for the entire game" for Khorne and stuff like that.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 13, 2021 - 06:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
It is ridiculous to say that a game that made room for every single player to eventually have 6 or 7 skills which would eventually lead to teams at such high levels was not designed to be played that high.
It implies you believe they expected the game to be something nobody would want to play for more than 3 or 4 games before quitting.
It implies you don't have any concept of what Star Players, Bribes other types of inducements are for.
It implies you don't really know the game very well.


The game was designed, from day 1, to stop you having a team full of skilled players. It's got "blood" in the name, eh. They had team expenses that skyrocketed with your total spp.

DP was +2 to armour and +2 to injury, on a table where 12 was dead, and it stacked with stuff. When they toned that down they added automatic injuries to players when they skilled up. When they toned that down again they added CPOMB and 2+ Lightning Bolt.

It went through iterations where skills never stacked on the way, couldn't even use Block and Mighty Blow on the same turn.

When they removed CPOMB and 2+ LB they added seasons, and players just leaving the team after a while, five years ago!

What they've added to seasons this update is more injuries and shorter player life before they leave!

Blood bowl has always tried to stop you having a team full of skilled players. It was called the rule of five during CPOMB, and even they regularly died to Lightning Bolt.

--

The similar game running on fumbbl for the last few years is a house ruled version without any of the player removal rules, or any of the other rules that punish big teams.

It's not like that in any published edition. Ever. Welcome to blood bowl, your pixels will not be here forever.

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