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Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 20:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Waiting to see the skills on the big fella. That is a lot of unavoidable frenzy on one team.

Take the 4 Kornigors every time. Everyone else will be frenzied.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 20:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Alien_the_Alien wrote:
So pretty much Garion's team with some slight adjustements https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/23/these-khorne-team-stats-let-you-master-the-art-of-grievous-violence-on-the-gridiron
Linemen are only AV8+, warriors a bit more expansive and khorngors a bit cheaper.
The BG stats aren't revealed yet but is likely yeti-like as well.
We'll see if their keep their M access on primaries.


Also Warriors have -ag compared to 2016 (which makes break tackle worse for them too, hurting their mobility) and are terrible passers (even more so than the rest), which makes quite the difference. Chaos Warriors were dominating players, now they are slightly faster BoBs.

With ag3 one could have been a ballcarrier, and with bt he could have dodged at 2+. that -ag hurts them a lot, really.

Also, I'm wondering if Chaos Warriors now get Strenght, General and Mutation access, or just Strenght and Mutation. I have a feeling that it might be the latter.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 20:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Chaos Chosen Blockers have GSM so I think that even Khorne Blockers will have GSM + a default "Khornate" skill, such as Frenzy.

About Break Tackle: I doubt that a Chaos/Khorne Blocker can get enough skills to bother with Break Tackle, so AG 4+ is not a big deal.
Block, Guard, MB/Claw have higher priority.
BB2016 Chaos Chosen didn't take Break Tackle.
The classic Chosen build was Block, MB, Claw, Guard, Tackle + Stand Firm, Frenzy, Pro or another skill but not Break Tackle.


Last edited by MattDakka on Sep 23, 2021 - 21:07; edited 1 time in total
Azur



Joined: Nov 13, 2020

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 21:07 Reply with quote Back to top

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/23/these-khorne-team-stats-let-you-master-the-art-of-grievous-violence-on-the-gridiron/

GW..... really.
JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 21:15 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Chaos Chosen Blockers have GSM so I think that even Khorne Blockers will have GSM + a default "Khornate" skill, such as Frenzy.

About Break Tackle: I doubt that a Chaos/Khorne Blocker can get enough skills to bother with Break Tackle, so AG 4+ is not a big deal.
Block, Guard, MB/Claw have higher priority.
BB2016 Chaos Chosen didn't take Break Tackle.
The classic Chosen build was Block, MB, Claw, Guard, Tackle + Stand Firm, Frenzy, Pro or another skill but not Break Tackle.


Everything you say is true, but there's a difference between theoretical minmaxing and real bb (which is in leagues btw).
Quite a bit of Chaos Warriors were ballcarriers, especially early on when you had to skill them and st4 was the best defence for a ballcarrier you could afford. And they had ag3 so they could pickup, catch an handoff, and, in a pinch, dodge away with relative ease.
Bloodseekers are bad for 110k. Not incredibly bad, their primary role is that of a blocker. But now they can only do that reliably. "Standard" Chaos Chosen can do so much more and they get +1ag, no frenzy, and 10k cost less.

As per BT, now it's more or less a wasted skill on anyone except a big guy with ag2 or, paradoxically, ag3 blitzers like humans or orcs. Sauruses, BoBs, Mummies will almost never get it. It wasn't broken, so I keep wondering why they nerfed it so bad.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 21:39 Reply with quote Back to top

The problems with using a Chosen ball carrier are:

- Low MA. 5 is very low for a ball carrier, considering that the MA of a Human Lineman is 6 (i.e. average movement). A decent ball carrier has at least MA 6 or 7. That means that to score a Chosen has, on average, to risk more GFIs than a Beastman. In private leagues the pitch is not shorter than in perpetual leagues. Also, it's not hard to cage with 2 Guards protecting a Beastman ball carrier from Leaping WDs. In return, you have to risk fewer GFIs in order to score, which is not a thing to underestimate. Also, if you get +2 MA on a Beastman you can even try to 1TTD (true story, not theory):
https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=9633079
With max MA 7 of a Chosen is way harder to 1TTD.

- Using a Chosen as ball carrier grants better protection from Leapers and sackers, especially early, but if you are using a Chosen as ball carrier you are losing his AV 9 and ST 4 + some skills on the frontline, such as Block, MB, Claw and Guard (Guard is better on a ST 4 player harder to block away than on a ST 3 Beastman).

In the Box there were some Chosen ball carriers, but they were not as common as "pure killer" Chosen. Most Chaos teams used a Beastman to carry the ball due to higher speed (which increases sligthly the passing range as well).
It's not theoretical, it's actual efficiency.
Anyway, it's a thing of the past. As you say, Break Tackle now is best on ST 3 and ST 5 players, paradoxically. On ST 4 players is not that great, relatively speaking.
Break Tackle was not broken, but on Bull Centaurs it was, in my opinion.
A ST 4 MA 6 (potential 9) player had too much mobility with Break Tackle.
Grasshugger17



Joined: Jun 29, 2020

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 22:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:
Waiting to see the skills on the big fella. That is a lot of unavoidable frenzy on one team.

Take the 4 Kornigors every time. Everyone else will be frenzied.


If you take 4 khorngors that's only 7 frenzy on the pitch! That's nowhere near enough! It's like Fend, the more you have the better it gets. Max it out. Go big, or go home.
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 22:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Roster certainly looks familiar...

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Azur



Joined: Nov 13, 2020

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 22:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Garion wrote:
Roster certainly looks familiar...


GW is simply stealing your work.
I know they are legally allowed to do so.
But morally......
Grasshugger17



Joined: Jun 29, 2020

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 23:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Azur wrote:
Garion wrote:
Roster certainly looks familiar...


GW is simply stealing your work.
I know they are legally allowed to do so.
But morally......


They've always been morally bankrupt.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 23:15 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Azur wrote:

Secret Leagues are called "secret" because they secretly inspire GW Wink


They probably have Garion locked in a basement.


Garion wrote:
Roster certainly looks familiar...


Wow! Who broke you out? Mr. Green

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 23:28 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
The problems with using a Chosen ball carrier are:

- Low MA. 5 is very low for a ball carrier, considering that the MA of a Human Lineman is 6 (i.e. average movement). A decent ball carrier has at least MA 6 or 7. That means that to score a Chosen has, on average, to risk more GFIs than a Beastman. In private leagues the pitch is not shorter than in perpetual leagues. Also, it's not hard to cage with 2 Guards protecting a Beastman ball carrier from Leaping WDs. In return, you have to risk fewer GFIs in order to score, which is not a thing to underestimate. Also, if you get +2 MA on a Beastman you can even try to 1TTD (true story, not theory):
https://fumbbl.com/p/player?player_id=9633079
With max MA 7 of a Chosen is way harder to 1TTD.

- Using a Chosen as ball carrier grants better protection from Leapers and sackers, especially early, but if you are using a Chosen as ball carrier you are losing his AV 9 and ST 4 + some skills on the frontline, such as Block, MB, Claw and Guard (Guard is better on a ST 4 player harder to block away than on a ST 3 Beastman).

In the Box there were some Chosen ball carriers, but they were not as common as "pure killer" Chosen. Most Chaos teams used a Beastman to carry the ball due to higher speed (which increases sligthly the passing range as well).
It's not theoretical, it's actual efficiency.
Anyway, it's a thing of the past. As you say, Break Tackle now is best on ST 3 and ST 5 players, paradoxically. On ST 4 players is not that great, relatively speaking.
Break Tackle was not broken, but on Bull Centaurs it was, in my opinion.
A ST 4 MA 6 (potential 9) player had too much mobility with Break Tackle.

Of course. But as I said, ag3 helps immensely the early development of those key players.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 23, 2021 - 23:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Indeed, but if you play Khorne you are supposed to gain SPPs through Casualties rather than by scoring TDs/passing the ball.
In the fluff Khorne teams are only interested in the bloody aspect of BB, the ball is not important, it's just an accessory on the pitch, the game an excuse for a carnage.
Moreover, low Agility represents that a Khorne Blocker is not going to dodge, he will more likely stand where he is and block/blitz the opponents around him (because he's on Frenzy). That fits the fluff well.
If you want AG 3+ Blockers you can play Chaos Chosen or who knows, maybe a Slaanesh team in the future, if GW ever will made it, with even more agile Blockers.
In my opinion is nice that the Blockers from Khorne, Nurgle and Chosen teams have different stats, that adds flavour and character.
I don't blindly like whatever roster GW makes (should I write: "copies from Garion? Razz "), but Khorne Blockers with AG 4+ sound right to me (although we know that a Khorne Warrior is not as slow and clumsy as a Zombie or a Dwarf). We have to consider AG 4+ as an "abstract way" to portray the Khorne Blocker more interested in fighting than in scoring/dodging away from enemies.
spubbbba



Joined: Jul 31, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 24, 2021 - 09:18 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
koadah wrote:
Azur wrote:

Secret Leagues are called "secret" because they secretly inspire GW Wink


They probably have Garion locked in a basement.


Garion wrote:
Roster certainly looks familiar...


Wow! Who broke you out? Mr. Green


I suspect Garion was able to rig up a crude morse code device to communicate with us from GW's dungeon.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 24, 2021 - 09:34 Reply with quote Back to top

I've been trying get back to fumbbl for months but real life has been insanely taxing for me the last 2 years. Things seem to be on the up at last, so hopefully it won't be too long till I am back properly.
But I've been lurking even in the trying times...

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