FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Nov 13, 2021 - 19:04

Bellenrode wrote:

I will clarify: would you (or anyone) take a skill to be able to punt the ball without having to go through a skill check (PA, in this case)?

I don't know, maybe I would take Hail Mary Pass, but it would require a Thrower/Runner, so first I should see if it's worth to have a Thrower/Runner on that specific team.

Bellenrode wrote:

My point was that the Elven Union becomes a superior passing team, because they get two PA 3+ Blitzers on top of having two Throwers (PA 2+). There is no other team like them.

And this is another inconsistency, because, according to the fluff, High Elves should be the best passing team. I would have made the Elven Union a sort of rugby team, with no Thrower but Dump-Off Catchers (or Runners). That would have been an interesting change. I.e. a team where there is no specific Thrower/Runner, but everybody can pass the ball when needed.

Bellenrode wrote:

For some teams passing got better (Human Thrower and Underworld Skaven Thrower both have PA +2). It's the Elves who got the shorter end of the stick.

If you consider the Human Thrower yes, if you consider the overall Human passing game, with 3+ Catch on the other end of the pass the Human passing game is not that reliable. Human Catchers would have been better with Diving Catch. Humans are not a bash team nor a passing team but now they have lost the versatility provided by rolling the lucky stat boost at 6 SPPs. By the way, I think that the passing change has been worse for pure bash teams rather than elves, because now they can't throw emergency passes with an AG 4 player, since AG is split from PA and since stat boosts require a fixed amount of SPPs (now you can't hope to get a lucky +AG at 6 SPPs like in BB2016).
Elves have high MA and AG so, unlike bash teams, they can easily hand off and score.

Bellenrode

Joined: May 02, 2021

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 06:24

MattDakka wrote:

And this is another inconsistency, because, according to the fluff, High Elves should be the best passing team.

Technically they are - their Throwers have Cloud Burster, Pass and Safe Pass and their Catchers have Catch, meaning the whole passing game of the High Elves is the safest of all Elven teams (because they are capable of 2+ rolls with free re-rolls across the board).

MattDakka wrote:

I would have made the Elven Union a sort of rugby team, with no Thrower but Dump-Off Catchers (or Runners). That would have been an interesting change. I.e. a team where there is no specific Thrower/Runner, but everybody can pass the ball when needed.

Isn't that where the Elven Union partially is at the moment? Granted, not everybody can pass the ball, but 1/3 of the team being able to do so is not insignificant.

MattDakka wrote:

If you consider the Human Thrower yes, if you consider the overall Human passing game, with 3+ Catch on the other end of the pass the Human passing game is not that reliable. Human Catchers would have been better with Diving Catch. Humans are not a bash team nor a passing team but now they have lost the versatility provided by rolling the lucky stat boost at 6 SPPs.

I don't quite agree here - yes, their overall passing game isn't the safest percentage-wise, but this only highlights that passing remains the domain of the Elves.

That said, Humans (as a whole) are now placed between teams like Elves (who have 2+ for throwing and catching) and teams who aren't supposed to be good at passing.

Not only because their stat line is 2+/3+ for throwing and 3+ for catching, but also because they have built-in re-rolls, so they don't have to sacrifice their team re-rolls on that, meaning their passes are by default safer (although not, as you noted, the safest).

MattDakka wrote:

By the way, I think that the passing change has been worse for pure bash teams rather than elves, because now they can't throw emergency passes with an AG 4 player, since AG is split from PA and since stat boosts require a fixed amount of SPPs (now you can't hope to get a lucky +AG at 6 SPPs like in BB2016). Elves have high MA and AG so, unlike bash teams, they can easily hand off and score.

This is true. In my opinion this only confirms what I have already said above: the Elves are still at the top when it comes to passing, the Humans are somewhere in-between and the bashy teams are even lower on the passing pole than the Humans.

Medon

Joined: Jan 28, 2015

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 09:40

Throwers are awesome, the best pieces in the game

MerryZ

Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 10:48

Hailmary pass is useless in 2020 btw.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 12:50

Bellenrode wrote:

Technically they are - their Throwers have Cloud Burster, Pass and Safe Pass and their Catchers have Catch, meaning the whole passing game of the High Elves is the safest of all Elven teams (because they are capable of 2+ rolls with free re-rolls across the board).

Yes, if you consider the HE Thrower, but the HE Blitzers have PA 4+, and HE Catchers are worse than Elven Union Catchers.

Bellenrode wrote:

Isn't that where the Elven Union partially is at the moment? Granted, not everybody can pass the ball, but 1/3 of the team being able to do so is not insignificant.

Agreed. What I meant is, they should not have a Thrower at all and their Catchers should have Dump-Off. In other words, they should be good at doing short range passes when blitzed (instead of long range passes, which should be HE's characteristic).

Bellenrode wrote:

I don't quite agree here - yes, their overall passing game isn't the safest percentage-wise, but this only highlights that passing remains the domain of the Elves.

Which makes sense, but now Humans have lost the versatility provided, for example, by rolling +AG on a Catcher, Blitzer or Thrower.

Bellenrode wrote:

Not only because their stat line is 2+/3+ for throwing and 3+ for catching, but also because they have built-in re-rolls, so they don't have to sacrifice their team re-rolls on that, meaning their passes are by default safer (although not, as you noted, the safest).

The built-in re-rolls have lost value with the multiple rr rule. Would be better to have skills/stats to lower the roll. For example Diving Catch on Catcher instead of Catch or the old skill up table, which could give +AG at first level up.

Bellenrode

Joined: May 02, 2021

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 14:07

MattDakka wrote:

Which makes sense, but now Humans have lost the versatility provided, for example, by rolling +AG on a Catcher, Blitzer or Thrower.

I see versatility differently - Humans remain versatile, because they have a decent chance to succeed when passing if they decide to do so, not because they were +AG away from being the old Elves.

MattDakka wrote:

The built-in re-rolls have lost value with the multiple rr rule. Would be better to have skills/stats to lower the roll. For example Diving Catch on Catcher instead of Catch or the old skill up table, which could give +AG at first level up.

While you can say that multiple team re-rolls allow for more in Blood Bowl 2020, there is still a lot of value in preserving your team re-rolls for stuff you can't re-roll by other means.

There is also the question of how many team re-rolls you can afford initially. Some teams got more expensive. If you can't afford to buy team re-rolls, then having a player with built-in re-roll fulfills that role. In addition, it won't be gone when you use that skill.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 14:48

Bellenrode wrote:

I see versatility differently - Humans remain versatile, because they have a decent chance to succeed when passing if they decide to do so, not because they were +AG away from being the old Elves.

I see. The fact is that, as they are, Humans are poor as bash team and a passing team. They are jacks of all fails.
If you want to bash, you play Orcs/Dwarfs, if you want to pass you play Elves. Humans are in a in-between zone where they are not effective in both fields, while in the fluff they are the most successful BB race. If they could get +AG on a Catcher or Blitzer at first level up they could be better. Even default Pro on Blitzers would be nice to represent their versatility.

Bellenrode wrote:

While you can say that multiple team re-rolls allow for more in Blood Bowl 2020, there is still a lot of value in preserving your team re-rolls for stuff you can't re-roll by other means.

When I have to pass the ball I want to have the best possible odds. With 3+ Catch I don't have better odds than a 2+ Diving Catch with a rr. With versatility I mean that Humans should have a basic AG/PA 3+ statline boosted by specific skill (to represent their training/versatilty) to perform that specific role.
So a Human Thrower should have PA 3+ and either Accurate or Cannoner by default (Accurate and Cannoneer should be merged into a single skill, in my opinion), while a Human Catcher should have AG 3+ Diving Catch.

Bellenrode wrote:

There is also the question of how many team re-rolls you can afford initially. Some teams got more expensive. If you can't afford to buy team re-rolls, then having a player with built-in re-roll fulfills that role. In addition, it won't be gone when you use that skill.

Humans can start with 3 rrs, so they don't have that issue. This is why I'd like Human Catchers with Diving Catch. They still would not be the best Catchers, because they have AG 3 and ST 2, unlike Elven Catchers.

Bellenrode

Joined: May 02, 2021

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 17:24

MattDakka wrote:

I see. The fact is that, as they are, Humans are poor as bash team and a passing team. They are jacks of all fails.

If you want to bash, you play Orcs/Dwarfs, if you want to pass you play Elves. Humans are in a in-between zone where they are not effective in both fields, while in the fluff they are the most successful BB race.

That's why some people liked Dark Elves (and why they were so strong in general) - they had perfect passing, perfect dodging and decent AV. Now they "only" have perfect dodging and decent AV.

MattDakka wrote:

If they could get +AG on a Catcher or Blitzer at first level up they could be better. Even default Pro on Blitzers would be nice to represent their versatility.

I like the idea of Pro on the Blitzers, it would certainly make some actions with them more interesting than usual.

MattDakka wrote:

When I have to pass the ball I want to have the best possible odds. With 3+ Catch I don't have better odds than a 2+ Diving Catch with a rr. With versatility I mean that Humans should have a basic AG/PA 3+ statline boosted by specific skill (to represent their training/versatilty) to perform that specific role.

So a Human Thrower should have PA 3+ and either Accurate or Cannoner by default (Accurate and Cannoneer should be merged into a single skill, in my opinion), while a Human Catcher should have AG 3+ Diving Catch.

+AG on a Catcher wouldn't represent a versatility but a specialization. Same goes for Diving Catch. You can develop Humans to be a top passing team, but you have to put some work into it. Like I said before - they aren't supposed to be Elves right out of the box.

MattDakka wrote:

Humans can start with 3 rrs, so they don't have that issue.

When I said "some teams got more expensive" I had Elves in mind. High Elves in particular benefit from having team re-roll saving skills when passing. Or from taking Dodge as their first skill.

But even though Humans can afford 3 team re-rolls it doesn't really change the fact that with built-in skills their passes are safer at all times, which frees their team re-rolls for other actions.

When you spend team re-roll for that 1 you rolled it's gone. When you spend a skill re-roll for the same action you still have that skill and you still have that team re-roll.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 17:48

Bellenrode wrote:

+AG on a Catcher wouldn't represent a versatility but a specialization. Same goes for Diving Catch. You can develop Humans to be a top passing team, but you have to put some work into it. Like I said before - they aren't supposed to be Elves right out of the box.

+AG makes a Human player better at receiving, picking up the ball, dodging, so it provides more versatility.
Diving Catch is a specialist skill representing the default training spent to become a good Catcher (but not an all-rounded player).
If you try to develop Humans into a top passing team you will use lot of TV for marginal utility because, as we said, passing game is not the plan A. If you like passing, it's better to play Elves, without bothering to turn Humans, a mediocre passing team, into a good passing team.

Bellenrode wrote:

When I said "some teams got more expensive" I had Elves in mind. High Elves in particular benefit from having team re-roll saving skills when passing. Or from taking Dodge as their first skill.

Passing is an action happening 1-2 times per game and Pass is not that useful because you can use a rr for that.
Team rrs can be used for different kinds of action, while Pass skill is useful only if you pass and if you fail the pass. I prefer to have 3 rrs on my starting HE team and no Thrower rather than a Thrower and 2 rrs. Rrs are versatile, Pass is not versatile, and by the way the HE Thrower is too expensive. Better to just use a Catcher as ball carrier.

Bellenrode wrote:

But even though Humans can afford 3 team re-rolls it doesn't really change the fact that with built-in skills their passes are safer at all times, which frees their team re-rolls for other actions.

Since the important pass is generally 1 per drive I don't need to rr lot of passes, while I need that it doesn't fail or I will not score. Hence the need of Diving Catch on Human Catcher. While I can re-roll the catch using a team rr, I can't lower the required roll with Catch.
Pass would be more important without multiple rr and if you spent the drive by passing the ball to farm SPPs, a thing I avoid with Wildly Inaccurate risk.

Bellenrode

Joined: May 02, 2021

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 18:31

MattDakka wrote:

+AG makes a Human player better at receiving, picking up the ball, dodging, so it provides more versatility. Diving Catch is a specialist skill representing the default training spent to become a good Catcher (but not an all-rounded player).

The problem is this would turn Humans into Elves, which they are not supposed to be out of the box.

MattDakka wrote:

If you try to develop Humans into a top passing team you will use lot of TV for marginal utility because, as we said, passing game is not the plan A. If you like passing, it's better to play Elves, without bothering to turn Humans, a mediocre passing team, into a good passing team.

1 skill on 2 players is hardly "a lot of TV" though. And Humans can get some interesting options Elves don't have access to.

MattDakka wrote:

Passing is an action happening 1-2 times per game and Pass is not that useful because you can use a rr for that.

"1-2 times per game"? I'd say it depends on what teams are at play. I have seen it happen more often than that (per half even!).

Sometimes a pass is an act of desperation. Sometimes it's an attempt to get an extra touchdown after stealing the ball. Sometimes you want to get the ball going away from the enemy, etc.

You see the least amount of passes when both teams are bashy teams and they simply aren't good at picking the ball.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 18:43

Bellenrode wrote:

The problem is this would turn Humans into Elves, which they are not supposed to be out of the box.

I'm not suggesting to give +AG by default to Humans.
I meant that with the old level up system Humans from time to time got a lucky +AG, which granted them more flexibility. Now to get +AG a Human player requires at least 18 SPPs. With old system at 6 SPPs +AG was possible. Also, you could nominate the positionals, now you waste MVPs on linemen due to random MVP.

Bellenrode wrote:

1 skill on 2 players is hardly "a lot of TV" though. And Humans can get some interesting options Elves don't have access to.

1 skill, you mean Cannoneer and Diving Catch? Then the Catcher will lack Block, so he will be easily knocked down. First skill is Block, so, it's at least 3 skills and there is no MVP nomination, so it's harder and slower to get the SPPs on those specific players.

Bellenrode wrote:

"1-2 times per game"? I'd say it depends on what teams are at play. I have seen it happen more often than that (per half even!).

This doesn't happen in competitive games. Matches are about running the ball and stalling till turn 8.
Passing is just a plan B when you can't run the ball.

Bellenrode

Joined: May 02, 2021

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 19:22

MattDakka wrote:

1 skill, you mean Cannoneer and Diving Catch? Then the Catcher will lack Block, so he will be easily knocked down. First skill is Block, so, it's at least 3 skills and there is no MVP nomination, so it's harder and slower to get the SPPs on those specific players.

You're the one saying he needs Diving Catch first, not me. I find ~86% chance of success to be pretty good.

MattDakka wrote:

This doesn't happen in competitive games. Matches are about running the ball and stalling till turn 8. Passing is just a plan B when you can't run the ball.

Not sure what you mean by "competitive games". I am talking about games in which people play to win.

Yes, ideally passing is just a plan B and usually you want to stall as much as possible (although there are some variables to that), but depending on how the game goes this can change, because matches can be unpredictable.

To me this is what makes Blood Bowl interesting, among other things.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 19:37

Bellenrode wrote:

You're the one saying he needs Diving Catch first, not me. I find ~86% chance of success to be pretty good.

Assuming you throw a Quick Pass. For such a short distance then I could use a Catcher as ball carrier and hand off the ball to another Catcher.

Bellenrode wrote:

Not sure what you mean by "competitive games". I am talking about games in which people play to win.

On FUMBBL such games often feature 0-1 pass per drive (I mean a pass to score, not just to farm SPPs through Completions).

JackassRampant

Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Posted: Nov 14, 2021 - 20:49

Why the Human hate? 85k Blitzers, baby! You can start with 4 Blitzers, a Thrower, a Catcher or two, 12 players, and 4 rerolls with a Human team. They're sweet in the new rules.

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Bellenrode

Joined: May 02, 2021

Posted: Nov 15, 2021 - 03:18

MattDakka wrote:

Assuming you throw a Quick Pass. For such a short distance then I could use a Catcher as ball carrier and hand off the ball to another Catcher.

Short Pass is ~79%, that's almost 4/5 chance of success.

MattDakka wrote:

On FUMBBL such games often feature 0-1 pass per drive (I mean a pass to score, not just to farm SPPs through Completions).

Like I said, I found that number to differ, depending on specific matchup and the overall situation. 0-1 pass per drive describes an ideal scenario, but many games are hardly ideal (same as the pick up scenario, really).

Then again, maybe people on FUMBBL play much more differently than the crowd I tend to play with (many of whom aren't exactly hardened Blood Bowl veterans).