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argos_72



Joined: Mar 02, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 13:04 Reply with quote Back to top

....As I read in one of Asimov's fine novels end, 'The Caves of Steel' :
there is nothing more just and desirable than the destruction of evil and its transformation into good'
Wink
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 13:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
It's basic sociality. Not mandatory but nice to have, like writing: "grats gg thanks for the game see you". That way you are treating your opponent like a person and not an AI.

I understand where you are coming from, but to me making things such as "gg" mandatory (socially) after a game is what made it meaningless, because people say it out of habit, without actually meaning it. We might as well automate the chat so it always says these things for us.

Also, I recognize situations when a particular match wasn't really a good experience for the other side (or for me), so saying "gg" is even worse under such circumstances.


I don't understand you.

It is not mandatory to say any of these things. If you don't want to say them don't say them. You can say something else or nothing at all.

If you say nothing at all and just exit, your opponent can draw their own conclusions from that.

If it was was horrible game ruined by the dice (either way), I'll probably just say "thanks for the game".

If it was was horrible game ruined by an obnoxious opponent, I'll probably just say "thanks for the game" and not really care if they pick up the sarcasm or not. Wink

I'll generally say more than gg unless the game has been mainly silent.

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 16:09 Reply with quote Back to top

What about a blacklist that refreshes after 180 days?

Oh, and "gg" has a meaning. It's not the same as "thx 4 playing" (which can be a dig at an opponent, or an acknowledgement that the game was a total Nuffle-fest). "GG" means "this game was enjoyable, but now it's over. Thanks for a good time." If I don't mean that, I'll sign off some other way.

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Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 18:49 Reply with quote Back to top

mekutata wrote:
We are not in BB2, this place is moderated. Because of that I don't see the need for the individual blacklist option.

I don't disagree. My comment about having a blacklist function was not linked specifically to FUMBBL, but online gaming and behaviour in general.

MattDakka wrote:
I understand your view. Well, you don't have to write "gg" or any comment about the match, just "thanks for the game, see you" is enough.

Indeed. I am very likely to write "Thank you for the game" when I am actively talking with my opponent about what's going on the pitch. And if I am not, I am more likely to thank him for the game if I actually found the game to be interesting.

MattDakka wrote:
Chat is not mandatory, you can be totally silent all game, but if some emergency happens and you have to communicate it to your opponent it would be a bit weird to suddenly start to chat just because now you need it.

Agreed. This is why I don't mute people right away. It has to be earned.

argos_72 wrote:
I don't like irreversible punishments. Everyone should be given the opportunity to perhaps correct their thinking and admit "I was wrong, sorry".

I get what you mean. Personally I wouldn't be mad at my opponent rage-quitting. Blood Bowl has moments when you just don't feel like playing, but I made it my policy to make the best with what I've got, so I carry on. I got some interesting games that way.

koadah wrote:
I don't understand you.

I don't blame you. I am somewhat eccentric.

koadah wrote:
It is not mandatory to say any of these things. If you don't want to say them don't say them. You can say something else or nothing at all.

You're not wrong, but you're not correct either.

Just because something is not mandatory by law doesn't mean it is not expected of you to follow certain established social standards (which you are supposed to somehow know about and follow. Otherwise you're being seen as rude).
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 19:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:

koadah wrote:
It is not mandatory to say any of these things. If you don't want to say them don't say them. You can say something else or nothing at all.

You're not wrong, but you're not correct either.

Just because something is not mandatory by law doesn't mean it is not expected of you to follow certain established social standards (which you are supposed to somehow know about and follow. Otherwise you're being seen as rude).


Maybe it is just me then. Smile
I don't feel required to say "gg" if I don't feel that it was. Smile

If you quit the game without saying anything then sure, the opponent may think you rude. That's life. Do you care?

Coach A: gg
Coach B: Are you kidding me?

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C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 19:59 Reply with quote Back to top

What I've learned from this thread is GG, Thanks for Playing, etc all have very specific meaning to certain people....I thought it was just general politeness.

I'm now wondering how may people I've offended by saying "Cheers for the game" or "Thanks for the match" or "Good luck in the next game/round/whatever"
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 20:49 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
If you quit the game without saying anything then sure, the opponent may think you rude. That's life. Do you care?

Let's say I find it somewhat disagreeable when an act of indifference is labelled as something negative when it's in fact wholly neutral.

But other than that - it doesn't really matter to me. I've chosen long ago to not be bound by what others think and only judge the value of thoughts or actions on their own merits alone.

C0ddlefish wrote:
I'm now wondering how may people I've offended by saying "Cheers for the game" or "Thanks for the match" or "Good luck in the next game/round/whatever"

You must be reading a different discussion then. Typing "gg" is not offensive, just meaningless.

There is a difference between a standardized fake politness and putting an actual thought into what you're saying (evenmoreso in this day and age).

If you can be bothered to string together a whole line of words, then you already prove yourself to be more involved in what you mean than you would have been by just typing "gg". Especially if said "gg" is the only thing you typed to the other coach for the whole game.

By the way, why is there an assumption that you can only be polite or offending? I think there is a third option: being indifferent. Just as there is 1 and -1, there is also room for 0. And 0 is neither positive nor is it a negative - it is precisely neutral.
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 22:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:
mekutata wrote:
We are not in BB2, this place is moderated. Because of that I don't see the need for the individual blacklist option.

I don't disagree. My comment about having a blacklist function was not linked specifically to FUMBBL, but online gaming and behaviour in general.


But we are talking about the experience on fumbbl :p

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BeanBelly



Joined: Nov 14, 2019

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 22:35 Reply with quote Back to top

@argos_72 I really like how you are thinking about Netiquette. Only thing I'd add is that you can only really make guidelines for yourself. I have have a similar promise written on my'About' page "I'll always congratulate you on your scores." And I always do no matter how I feel. Hopefully the opposition coach appreciates the 'congrats' and at the very least it buys me a calm moment to regroup my thoughts.


@coddlefish I've never taken your polite goodbyes the wrong way! You are getting things far more right than wrong : )

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The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 23:29 Reply with quote Back to top

As much as I dislike it, the TIME-OUT button is there to be used by 15 year olds, or the ultra competitive as they see fit. Thoughts towards the time-out button depend on the head space a particular coach is in. Thinking another coach should be in a similar head-space as you is a flaw in reasoning.. one I make quite often.

A young coach might be extremely hungry for his first win over an experienced coach, and, perhaps having been timed out himself 20+ times for being slow, he would see it as totally fair and justified to time-out someone else during a complex turn, warning or not. I have seen excitement to lock in a win be part of a Time-Out decision many times. I can understand this desire to finally be victorious.

Competitive coaches might be extremely attached to their own win percentages, by race, division, whatever, or to their CR, coach rank, etc. etc. If they hold themselves and their friends to a strict 4 minute standard, they might see it as an unpleasant and unfair handicap to themselves and their 'number maintenance' to ever allow another coach over 4 minutes. If a part of their fun is their numbers, then a Time-Out is almost a must for them, no?

I have a dozen reasons I would never time anyone out, ever, and I often find myself wishing experienced ambassadors of the game would allow an opponent's fun and complex turns to run their course.. but that's me, and my wish. Acknowledging that someone else is playing over 4 minutes because they are puzzling something out and presumably having fun, and allowing them to do so.. I think that's healthy for FUMBBL. Getting into arguments over the Time-Out button and it's use.. that probably isn't.

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almic85



Joined: May 25, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 00:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:
koadah wrote:
If you quit the game without saying anything then sure, the opponent may think you rude. That's life. Do you care?

Let's say I find it somewhat disagreeable when an act of indifference is labelled as something negative when it's in fact wholly neutral.


I think you might find that a lot of people put indifference in the negative basket rather than it being neutral.

Bellenrode wrote:
C0ddlefish wrote:
I'm now wondering how may people I've offended by saying "Cheers for the game" or "Thanks for the match" or "Good luck in the next game/round/whatever"

You must be reading a different discussion then. Typing "gg" is not offensive, just meaningless.

There is a difference between a standardized fake politness and putting an actual thought into what you're saying (evenmoreso in this day and age).

If you can be bothered to string together a whole line of words, then you already prove yourself to be more involved in what you mean than you would have been by just typing "gg". Especially if said "gg" is the only thing you typed to the other coach for the whole game..


So it looks like you specifically don’t like people using the contraction “gg” as opposed to someone actually typing out “thanks for the game” or “that was a great game” because the former is seen as just going through the motions (like asking someone “how are you?” And being told “good”) while the latter is a more engaged personal approach.

That makes sense and is entirely understandable, though I wouldn’t be so negative towards people that are doing the bare minimum just to uphold social etiquette.

Social etiquette exists to lubricate the differences between people in society and allow them to function together with minimal grinding. It provides a basic framework that is easily accessible to most people and can lead into a bigger engagement with others if both parties choose to.

When you deal with a number of people each day it helps to have a universally acceptable form of greeting that allows you to begin an engagement and then have the freedom to take it in any direction. It can remain just perfunctory if there is no need to engage further, it can move to discussion of trade or other requirement, it can stay light and breezy if you are still assessing the situation, or it can go deeper if you have established an appropriate level of trust with a person.

Chat in online games tends to only be perfunctory (GL, HF, GG), discussion of trade (do you want to play?) or light and breezy (Nice foul, or look at all those skulls) by virtue of the fact that you don’t have any physical or personal connection with the opponent to have a deeper conversation.

I guess the short bit here is I don’t really expect someone sitting at a computer who doesn’t really know me to say any more than “Good luck and have fun”, but I know that if someone doesn’t at least say that then they don’t care (or are indifferent) to my play experience.

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Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 05:09 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:
As much as I dislike it, the TIME-OUT button is there to be used by 15 year olds, or the ultra competitive as they see fit.

You're right. Take all the time you need to plan your turn through.

However, there is a key difference between using that time to play and using that time just to waste other player's time on purpose (doing literally nothing).

almic85 wrote:
I think you might find that a lot of people put indifference in the negative basket rather than it being neutral.

True. Humans are not as reasonable species as they like to think.

almic85 wrote:
That makes sense and is entirely understandable, though I wouldn’t be so negative towards people that are doing the bare minimum just to uphold social etiquette.

I guess the root of the issue (for me) is seeing the difference between being nice and being polite. The first is a natural reaction. Some people simply have a nice disposition. The second is the artificial result of "upholding social etiquette just because".

almic85 wrote:
Social etiquette exists to lubricate the differences between people in society and allow them to function together with minimal grinding. It provides a basic framework that is easily accessible to most people and can lead into a bigger engagement with others if both parties choose to.

I find that debatable.

It's not like you are moving through a crowded bus where "Excuse me" serves both as a warning ("I am going through") and a signal that you want to exit the bus.

If you need to ask me an honest question, then I am willing to answer it to best of my ability, because I recognize the need and the purpose of asking a question. There is no need for prefacing the question with greeting or lubrication of any sort.

But that could be simply because I am extremely utilitarian when using the internet.
almic85



Joined: May 25, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 06:22 Reply with quote Back to top

@Bellenrode you are right that interacting with people on the internet is different to interacting with people in real life, but I believe that a lot of people draw a connection between the two in terms of what is socially acceptable. I would go further and state that most people would like their interactions on the internet to have the same level of “civility” as their interactions in person.

There are even social etiquettes in Internet forums such as not double posting, which draws a parallel to someone talking at you rather than with you. Or not writing in ALL CAPS which is the equivalent of yelling.

There are even social etiquettes that relate simply to writing text and change depending on where you are writing, what you are writing , and who you are writing it to, which influence our use of punctuation, grammar, contractions, and emojis.

I would like to promote a sense of community and positive (for the most part) reinforcement on here so will continue to try and chat with opponents as best as I can while I am trying to think about what to do next and move my little pixels around the board.

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JanMattys



Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 07:44 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:
As much as I dislike it, the TIME-OUT button is there to be used by 15 year olds, or the ultra competitive as they see fit. Thoughts towards the time-out button depend on the head space a particular coach is in. Thinking another coach should be in a similar head-space as you is a flaw in reasoning.. one I make quite often.

A young coach might be extremely hungry for his first win over an experienced coach, and, perhaps having been timed out himself 20+ times for being slow, he would see it as totally fair and justified to time-out someone else during a complex turn, warning or not. I have seen excitement to lock in a win be part of a Time-Out decision many times. I can understand this desire to finally be victorious.

Competitive coaches might be extremely attached to their own win percentages, by race, division, whatever, or to their CR, coach rank, etc. etc. If they hold themselves and their friends to a strict 4 minute standard, they might see it as an unpleasant and unfair handicap to themselves and their 'number maintenance' to ever allow another coach over 4 minutes. If a part of their fun is their numbers, then a Time-Out is almost a must for them, no?

I have a dozen reasons I would never time anyone out, ever, and I often find myself wishing experienced ambassadors of the game would allow an opponent's fun and complex turns to run their course.. but that's me, and my wish. Acknowledging that someone else is playing over 4 minutes because they are puzzling something out and presumably having fun, and allowing them to do so.. I think that's healthy for FUMBBL. Getting into arguments over the Time-Out button and it's use.. that probably isn't.


I think I've never hit the 4 mins limit in at least five years during my turns, and I couldn't agree more.

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mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 09:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:
The_Murker wrote:
As much as I dislike it, the TIME-OUT button is there to be used by 15 year olds, or the ultra competitive as they see fit.

You're right. Take all the time you need to plan your turn through.

However, there is a key difference between using that time to play and using that time just to waste other player's time on purpose (doing literally nothing).

.


This is not a bb2 netiquette discussion. This kind of behavior is not typical here at all.

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