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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 01:49 Reply with quote Back to top

stej wrote:
Can we all play goblins in the box to tank our CR, then play some tier 1 teams va Matt in ranked?
If we all play Goblins, it won't tank our CR, since all the non-Dakka matches (matches that aren't Mattches?) would then be Gobbo vs Gobbo.

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asteflix



Joined: Jan 20, 2014

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 02:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Wozzaa wrote:
Maybe the best coaches win tournaments?


No they don't, i'm the living proof of it.

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Wozzaa



Joined: Apr 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 02:35 Reply with quote Back to top

asteflix wrote:
Wozzaa wrote:
Maybe the best coaches win tournaments?


No they don't, i'm the living proof of it.


You're great. You'd be better with a few tournament wins.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 29, 2021 - 04:05 Reply with quote Back to top

smallman wrote:
so some new filter features would be great:


2. Can add players you never want to play vs.


Is this your attempt at going cold turkey?
smallman



Joined: Sep 24, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 30, 2021 - 22:59 Reply with quote Back to top

another issue i've noticed is when you reject an offer it often comes up again 2mins later, this is super annoying and silly
Tesifonte



Joined: Sep 06, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2021 - 00:10 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
stej wrote:
Can we all play goblins in the box to tank our CR, then play some tier 1 teams va Matt in ranked?
If we all play Goblins, it won't tank our CR, since all the non-Dakka matches (matches that aren't Mattches?) would then be Gobbo vs Gobbo.


This is known to be BAD MECHANICS.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2021 - 00:13 Reply with quote Back to top

SO UNFAIR.
Tesifonte



Joined: Sep 06, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2021 - 00:14 Reply with quote Back to top

smallman wrote:
another issue i've noticed is when you reject an offer it often comes up again 2mins later, this is super annoying and silly


Firing squad should deal with this.

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Tesifonte



Joined: Sep 06, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 01, 2021 - 00:17 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
SO UNFAIR.


At least no CR loss.

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naytsyrhc



Joined: Jun 09, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 29, 2022 - 15:29 Reply with quote Back to top

I did not read all the posts in this topic, so apologize, if some of this has been said already or was addressed already.

I come up with this because of Christers recent blog-post
https://fumbbl.com/p/blog?c=Christer&id=24053

MattDakka answered my comment to Christers post and this is what I continued to think about:

I think a selective match-up is not how it should be in a competitive (ladder) league. Coaches will probably avoid Legends or avoid certain team. But in BB there is always a chance even for bad coaches to win against legends as we are not playing chess here but have to deal with dice. The more experienced coaches can compensate bad luck better (or are more capable of making the best out of not so good dices or slightly bad dices of the opponent, or... - you know what I mean Wink ), but nevertheless the random factor is there.

Concerning avoiding certain teams: I think it's bad, that e.g. an Amazon coach can always avoid Dwarfs. He or she should be forced to face those teams as well (at least from time to time). If you're going to a TT tournament, you will face any team available and that's how it should be in a competitive league as well IMHO.

If you look at the match-making of CCL (BB2), we know, it can be worse, as they purely rely on TV and try to match same TV. This is not a good match-making algorithm either, as Tier 1 teams perform differently from Tier 3 teams on same TV.

Normal TT Tournaments give inducements (Skills/Money) to Tier x teams to equalize chances. A Snotling- or Goblin- or Halfling-Coach will try to keep TV low in order to get Inducements but with that algorithm he or she will only face new TV 1000 teams, smashed teams or will spin forever.

So my suggestion is to make the match-making with several steps. As first step check how many games the team has played and try to match against another team that played a similar number of games. 2nd step could be something like Coach-Performance (Rookie or Legend, Winrate, whatever) and try to prefer matching of same level coaches (should not be too strict though). Another filter could also be recent opponents. So if someone played against Dwarfs recently, prefer a non-Dwarf team (if possible). All of these steps/filters can be used to determine a "match-factor" and the algorithm should randomly choose the opponent from those matching best. It's also possible to then show all matches ordered by best matching factor and let coaches still be able to choose from that list.

I don't know if this is a practicable solution, but as I said in my comment to Christers blog, I think the pure selective match-up leads to coaches avoiding matches and makes playing Tier 3 teams quite difficult.
naytsyrhc



Joined: Jun 09, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 29, 2022 - 17:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Just as a "disclaimer":

I started to use Fumbbl with BB2020 rules and only know about the current Gamefinder for Competitive matches with BB2020 Teams. I know the BB2 CCL "spinning". Don't know how Black-Box here on Fumbbl worked.

I'm also not someone who wants to play teams forever but see value in frequent resets like monthly in CCL or any other form.

Without reset it's even more essential to match only teams with similar number of games IMHO.

As an alternative I would love to have an implementation of the BB2020 redraft-rules in a competitive eternal league with the enforcement of redrafts for each team every e.g. 40 games.
Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Mar 29, 2022 - 18:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Nayytsyrch I'm much like you in my BB2 and tabletop background, recent arrival on FUMBBL, and preferences.

I will say one of the variables it appears at many times for me (North America east coast) the total population of coaches in matchmaker is relatively low I've hit 1 coach (myself) and sometimes 3-4. Very rarely in the times I'm matchmaking I see 6-7 coaches matchmaking at the same time.

That small population makes 'good' (depending on how you define it) matchmaking difficult particularly with a lot of filters in place. There are likely other periods (I think EU is higher population then NA) that have better population.
naytsyrhc



Joined: Jun 09, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 29, 2022 - 18:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, that's true. But I think it's also possible to come up with an algorithm that works for large number of coaches (getting much better match-making-results of course) and for low number of coaches. E.g. if number of totally availabe coaches less than x just suggest all or something like that.
naytsyrhc



Joined: Jun 09, 2020

Post   Posted: Mar 29, 2022 - 22:03 Reply with quote Back to top

I just thought about that possibility to choose your opponent for while. I think the freedom of choice is always bad here and results in less games played or frustration.
A clever automatic algorithm is IMHO better in that aspect, as more games will be played and frustration can be minimized as the randomness makes the game interesting. It's boring to always face the same teams I only get offers for, because the other coaches see an advantage to challenge me with that team.
Isn't that the flaw of the system? Each coach will try to find the best opponent to win against and thus naturally there are less possible matchings.
With automatic selection of the opponents by games played, TV, CR and maybe (as said already) latest opponents races, there is much more variation and more possible matches. Or is that a wrong assumption?
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Mar 29, 2022 - 22:40 Reply with quote Back to top

What is the problem? New Black Box is coming.

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