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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2021 - 03:24 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
I take Pro on Blitzers now after Mighty Blow and Tackle. It nets me about one knockdown per game, never skulls you out on a 2d block anymore, and sometimes comes in handy on other rolls (icing on the cake).


I cut all the rest of your post. Thanks for the MATHS.

TO me PRO is the skill you take on the Player or Players you intend to roll the most dice.
Your Sacker. Your Sweeper. A Primary Blitzer. Your Ball Carrier. Etc etc

Any player that you intend to use to do something like.. Pick Up, Blitz with Frenzy or Leap and Dodge, GFI, GFI for a Touchdown for example.
Sure you could get that player Sure Hands, Frenzy or Leap (OR BOTH Shocked ) Dodge and Sure Feet.
OR you could Bank all of your Rerolls for that key play.
OR... just PRO (and Frenzy/Leap).

But PRO pretty much gives you Pass, Catch, Sure Feet, part of Sure Hands and part of Dodge in just 1 Skill Slot... ready for whichever roll you need it for (most of the time).

And for players that don't have access to Agility Skills (or General Skills for that matter) that you can't really get Dodge for... Pro is a poor man's Dodge.

Also... Pro cannot be canceled out by Tackle.
Who cares if an opponent with Tackle Marks or Blitzes you Pro?
It makes all of that Tackle on a Dwarf or CD team USELESS. A waste of TV.
smeborg



Joined: Jan 04, 2019

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2021 - 06:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
Also... Pro cannot be canceled out by Tackle.
Who cares if an opponent with Tackle Marks or Blitzes you Pro?
It makes all of that Tackle on a Dwarf or CD team USELESS. A waste of TV.

Yes, but taking Pro instead of Dodge reduces the protection available to your player (an important consideration in BB2020, with the return of Blood in the Bowl).

Otherwise, I like Pro too.
stej



Joined: Jan 05, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2021 - 08:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Pro is like 33% of lots of other skills. Jack of all trades, master of none
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 04, 2021 - 20:24 Reply with quote Back to top

stej wrote:
Pro is like 33% of lots of other skills. Jack of all trades, master of none
In some cases, it's 67% of those skills. 2/3 of a skill reroll on pickups, rushes, dodges, catches, landings, leaps, jumps, 1d blocks ... but wait! There's more!

Pro is usable on 2+ skill attempts as well. Dauntless, Jump Up, Hypnotic Gaze.

Pro is usable on blocks. It's not great on 3 dice, but on 2 dice for or against it's really excellent. The new Pro doesn't generate as many knockdowns, but if you're 2d blocking and get a push/skull, the new Pro will let you use it on the skull only so at worst you get yourself a push. On 2d uphill blocks with the Block skill (or Wrestle), it's slightly more likely, if you only pro skulls, to generate a knockdown than a TRR would be (though, as you'd expect, it's not as good to avoid skulls).

If you have a guy who's gotta do it all, Pro is an excellent selection, especially in the new rules.

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Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 04:03 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Animosity is just there to make you think they didn't get massively buffed, and that was only necessary because a lot of coaches didn't understand how bad Orcs sucked in BB2016 and LRB5/6.

My impression was that Orcs were considered "better Humans", because they had AV9 as baseline, while having more ST and same AG compared to Humans.

In my opinion Animosity was added, because they wanted to further reinforce the idea of not passing with certain teams.

Which is a sound idea in theory, but in practice the prevailing mindset was "Don't pass until absolutely needed", so for some teams (like Orcs) it won't really change anything, outside some odd "let's make an unconventional team" coaches.

That said, I'd rename "Orc Thrower" to "Orc Pick-uper", because with Animosity trait this became his literally only job (unless you're desperate enough to try and pass with him) and he wasn't a popular guy before either, which says something.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 05:04 Reply with quote Back to top

smeborg wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
Also... Pro cannot be canceled out by Tackle.
Who cares if an opponent with Tackle Marks or Blitzes you Pro?
It makes all of that Tackle on a Dwarf or CD team USELESS. A waste of TV.

Yes, but taking Pro instead of Dodge reduces the protection available to your player (an important consideration in BB2020, with the return of Blood in the Bowl).

Otherwise, I like Pro too.



True.
But I am talking about a Player that can't just get Dodge without what used to be called Double.

I used to use it a lot on Slann, because they get Leap and don't face any players that start with Sure Hands.

Usually, 1 Catcher got Pro and the rest got Dodge.
1 Lineman got Sure Hands, and 3 got Pro.
Players with Pro didn't get other Reroll Skills players without Pro might get other reroll skills.

The Blitzer needed to stay on the ground (standing) and so did the Meat Shield Linemen.


Pro was also part of the Vampire build... but other Vamps didn't take Pro.
Although I guess Vampires tend to fit the "player that is going to roll lots of dice" description I gave earlier because they do most of the work on a Vampire team.
(And I have TRIED to focus a team around the Thralls and what they can do. But that is a narrow road to success that is not optimal either. Especially in BB2016 and BB2020).
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 05, 2021 - 05:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:
JackassRampant wrote:
Animosity is just there to make you think they didn't get massively buffed, and that was only necessary because a lot of coaches didn't understand how bad Orcs sucked in BB2016 and LRB5/6.

My impression was that Orcs were considered "better Humans", because they had AV9 as baseline, while having more ST and same AG compared to Humans.

In my opinion Animosity was added, because they wanted to further reinforce the idea of not passing with certain teams.

Which is a sound idea in theory, but in practice the prevailing mindset was "Don't pass until absolutely needed", so for some teams (like Orcs) it won't really change anything, outside some odd "let's make an unconventional team" coaches.

That said, I'd rename "Orc Thrower" to "Orc Pick-uper", because with Animosity trait this became his literally only job (unless you're desperate enough to try and pass with him) and he wasn't a popular guy before either, which says something.


Before I say what I want to say. I want to say that I agree with what you said.
SO my comments below are directed at GW and not you.

What kind of DON"T KNOW THE FREAKING GAME MORONS thought that PASSING needed to be DISCOURAGED in BLOOD BOWL?

Even ELVES don't really THROW in this game beyond lots of little quick passes.
So many Coaches don't even know how to RUN a TEAM with a Passing game anymore.

Now I will relent on my critique of GW in saying that they did BUFF a few Throwers tp try to get a few of them added back to various teams that were just not using them AT ALL.
And that was probably a good change that MIGHT bring some Passing back into the game.

But giving the Orc Thrower Animosity to ALL TEAMMATES is just STUPID.
His job was to (1) Pick Up Ball and (2) Distribute Ball to Teammates and (3) Protect the Ball from Strip Ball
Now he can't reliably do a very important part of his job.

And there is even less reason to have a Goblin on the team that could maybe babysit the Troll and then Catch a Ball Passd by the THROWER inside a screened-off area protected by teammates to score a TD.

The Orc Thrower is now officially a useless piece and it was almost a useless piece BEFORE BB2020.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2021 - 01:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, the Orc Thrower is terrible now. But your ST4 players are now fast enough to keep up, or to stand up and move twice as far as a BOB. You can carry with them too, unlike with a BOB. So the marginal piece that was really icing on the cake is now more marginal, and the main problem with your team's core engine has been fixed. You tell me if that's a net positive or negative, but I say positive.

Oh, and as someone with hundreds upon hundreds of games with both races, Orcs aren't "tougher Humans" at all. They have so many differences, and though there are a few similarities, that's true with lots of races. Orcs are slow and mid-price, and Humans have skill access issues to manage, but at least they're cheap.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2021 - 04:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Why do people keep talking about "pieces"?

This isn't chess.

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MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2021 - 12:23 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Why do people keep talking about "pieces"?

This isn't chess.


Because players consist of several pieces, some of which may end up at opposite ends of the pitch, and it's rude to discriminate between them.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2021 - 15:58 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Why do people keep talking about "pieces"?

This isn't chess.
The American Football talking heads sometimes refer to players as "pieces" (more as in "piece of the puzzle" than "playing piece") so I don't know why we can't.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2021 - 16:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally I don't like to use the word "piece" to refer to "player" in BB context but, as long as we clearly understand they are players in a sentence, I think there is no issue.
Bellenrode



Joined: May 02, 2021

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2021 - 16:53 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
Why do people keep talking about "pieces"?

This isn't chess.

In tabletop your players play the part of your chess pieces on the board (except in Blood Bowl it's called "the pitch"), hence the term.
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 06, 2021 - 17:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Bellenrode wrote:
koadah wrote:
Why do people keep talking about "pieces"?

This isn't chess.

In tabletop your players play the part of your chess pieces on the board (except in Blood Bowl it's called "the pitch"), hence the term.


Now, I could be mistaken, and I guess I shouldn't talk on Koadah's behalf, however, I suspect Koadah knows of your explanation, but the question was less of an actual question, and more an expression of distaste for treating Bloodbowl like merely a board and pieces, instead of a dynamic, somewhat flavored game, with players, coaches, and stories rather than neat score boards.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 07, 2021 - 04:18 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
Yes, the Orc Thrower is terrible now. But your ST4 players are now fast enough to keep up, or to stand up and move twice as far as a BOB. You can carry with them too, unlike with a BOB.


Never had much trouble scoring with a BOB. Cool
My offense was set up so that I could score with a BOB.
All I needed to do it was an entire Half and for my opponent to kick the ball out of bounds.

That 2nd part was the tricky part. Never could figure out how to make my opponent kick it out of bounds.
Maybe I should have "DARED THEM" to do it. Shocked
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