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Poll
How do you feel about Min TV + Max Inducements
It's all part of the fun
49%
 49%  [ 37 ]
It's a little unethical
13%
 13%  [ 10 ]
It should be banned
10%
 10%  [ 8 ]
Morg ate all the pies!
26%
 26%  [ 20 ]
Total Votes : 75


garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2021 - 16:50 Reply with quote Back to top

It is a small pool of teams that can often use big star players. And that Morg actually gets chosen time to time, and feared, is a good thing. We won’t be seeing tier 1 teams getting much use out of him.

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“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.”
Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Dec 20, 2021 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
Well put

But Morg being good means they can sell a mini for £23


They have 26 star players (24 Forgeworld and 2 in plastic)
Optimally for GW all the star players are useful additions to a player's collection. That way they can sell you all of them (or at least multiple)

If 3 players (Morg, Griff, Hakflem) are the clear cut absolute best star players - they will make sales on those three and none of the rest. They want us to say hmm I could add X, Y, or Z to my collection and am likely to use them in game. That only happens if all/most of the stars are equivalently useful.
wintergreen13



Joined: Apr 10, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 21, 2021 - 08:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Kinks wrote:
Absolutely my thoughts. I think in reality, coaches like us will continue to develop players and teams. Sadly that will make us sub-optimal and will probably result in seeing fewer and fewer traditional teams win tournaments going forward. Sad


I think it depends on the tournament. I faced a variety of stars in the first C minor, including happygrue's ogres with Morg and Griff, and came out on top. My elf team, though, was quite developed compared to what you'd find in a Royal Rookie Rumble. The second minor, with an even higher TV limit, has even more deadly teams to contend with (the dwarves who knocked me out were horrendous in all the best ways). Tournaments like the C minor take the edge off stars: for one, developed teams have ways to deal with Morg et al (dodge, guard, dirty git, etc.); for two, low TV teams aren't guaranteed to make the minor at all since they accept highest TV first. If you want to win a minor you probably still want to build a homegrown team with your own players (especially with the chance of some cheap random skills to help out).

I think the places that the most soul-searching has to be done are probably NAF tournaments and the RRR. Minors and (hopefully soon!) majors might be impacted slightly, but I still believe that well-managed homegrown teams will keep their edge in the most prestigious FUMBBL tournaments.
maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 21, 2021 - 13:33 Reply with quote Back to top

wintergreen13 wrote:

I think the places that the most soul-searching has to be done are probably NAF tournaments and the RRR. Minors and (hopefully soon!) majors might be impacted slightly, but I still believe that well-managed homegrown teams will keep their edge in the most prestigious FUMBBL tournaments.


You saw this right? I'm not commenting on whether or not the match was played well by the orcs, but a lot of effort went into preparing their team for the tournament. The fling coach just spent 30 seconds and created an arguably better team.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 21, 2021 - 13:53 Reply with quote Back to top

As a note, due to Morg's power as a killer, he is particularly going to make bash teams really have to work VERY hard to create a team that doesn't justify getting him. Griff and Hakflem are ball carriers, and therefore the teams that can gain access to them need to justify building any other ball carrier. (Teams that can get both are arguably the 'worst' off in terms of development, since they should not build either ball carriers or killers).

This actually means a team like elves, that can't get one of the uber-ball carrier stars, and probably won't homegrow a killer, are more likely to do well (as long as they try to get Morg of course!)
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 21, 2021 - 17:42 Reply with quote Back to top

maznaz wrote:
. The fling coach just spent 30 seconds and created an arguably better team.

Not really as most of the players are Flings..

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“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.”
wintergreen13



Joined: Apr 10, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 21, 2021 - 18:34 Reply with quote Back to top

maznaz wrote:
You saw this right? I'm not commenting on whether or not the match was played well by the orcs, but a lot of effort went into preparing their team for the tournament. The fling coach just spent 30 seconds and created an arguably better team.


Maybe, but you knocked them out in round 2 Wink Grue at least made it to round 3 with his team! Winning one game doesn't mean they dominated the tournament - the four remaining teams all have a decent number of games under their belts, and your UW have the lowest TV, at 1330 (but have played 56 games).

Edit: having watched the match you linked, the flings won that game on a turn 16 TTM, which is a low-probability play. If the game had gone to OT I'd have liked the odds of the orcs to win it.
maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 21, 2021 - 19:57 Reply with quote Back to top

wintergreen13 wrote:
maznaz wrote:
You saw this right? I'm not commenting on whether or not the match was played well by the orcs, but a lot of effort went into preparing their team for the tournament. The fling coach just spent 30 seconds and created an arguably better team.


Maybe, but you knocked them out in round 2 Wink Grue at least made it to round 3 with his team! Winning one game doesn't mean they dominated the tournament - the four remaining teams all have a decent number of games under their belts, and your UW have the lowest TV, at 1330 (but have played 56 games).

Edit: having watched the match you linked, the flings won that game on a turn 16 TTM, which is a low-probability play. If the game had gone to OT I'd have liked the odds of the orcs to win it.


I was lucky in that my TV was low enough to prevent Morg and Griff. Zug came instead and he's weak. I guess my point really is that even if you can make a case that the fling team outcoached the orcs and got a bit of luck, they started the match competitive vs a 1600tv team with 400k in the bank and a ton of games played. The flings were a virgin roster. Is that healthy for tournaments?
wintergreen13



Joined: Apr 10, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 21, 2021 - 20:45 Reply with quote Back to top

maznaz wrote:
I was lucky in that my TV was low enough to prevent Morg and Griff. Zug came instead and he's weak. I guess my point really is that even if you can make a case that the fling team outcoached the orcs and got a bit of luck, they started the match competitive vs a 1600tv team with 400k in the bank and a ton of games played. The flings were a virgin roster. Is that healthy for tournaments?


There have always been teams that made runs, sometimes even very deep runs, in the minors and majors using brand new teams (for instance, the Ogre XFL was famously won once by a team that rostered only gnoblars). Yet no major was ever won by one of these teams (XFL doesn't count). Tournaments will certainly look different under 2020 rules, and yes, maybe a rookie team would have a better shot now, but I certainly don't think they will dominate the most prestigious FUMBBL tournaments. Even Kinks said it: regardless of how powerful it is to take a rookie team with Morg 'n Friends, most coaches enjoy the team building process and will still try to build their own perfect tournament team.

I could be wrong, maybe the next minor will feature an absurd number of snotling and halfling teams that squash all comers. But I have a feeling that it will look more like the minor we are running now, which is being dominated by top-tier coaches who built excellent teams over many games.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2022 - 16:39 Reply with quote Back to top

https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4355414

This changes nothing - I'm sticking to my opinion!

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2022 - 18:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Funny but yea proves nothing about the original point. With Morg stuck in a mega bunker then fouled out, opponent conceeded after 3 turns

The game could have gone differently.. but then UW are one of the best rosters and flings are one of the worst
maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2022 - 19:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Kinks wrote:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4355414

This changes nothing - I'm sticking to my opinion!


that is beautiful!
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 04, 2022 - 21:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Was that a tournament game? Not sure that's a legal concession...

Anyway, I got the invite for the RRR 500 when this thread first appeared, so, having played no RRR since CRP, I expected to see a lot of minimized TV stunty teams with Morg. So I discussed this with some pals and mister__joshua (who insists to take credit) came up with the idea of a Chaos Dwarf team going in with low TV as well, to deny Morg and kill all the Stunties with Tackle. So at 760k that's 6 Dwarf Blockers, 5 Hobbos and 2 RR, full stop.

First round went according to plan and I destroyed some Flings. Since then I've only been drawn against proper teams, where a proper team of my own would have been handy. Hakflem is nice but I'd rather have two Bulls against most teams... I was still lucky enough to make it to the final 4 but will need a lot of luck against Storr and his Norse. The only Morg build still in the competition is Spartako's Snotlings.

It reminds me a bit of the time when I was a n00b first coming to Blackbox and the forum was choke full of threads complaining about CPOMB and minmaxers so I started out with a minmax team of my own because I didn't want to be bringing a knife to a gunfight. I think back then I counted a total of 3 real minmax teams that I played against in my first 100 games... and that was before the scheduler change.
maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2022 - 10:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
Was that a tournament game? Not sure that's a legal concession...

Anyway, I got the invite for the RRR 500 when this thread first appeared, so, having played no RRR since CRP, I expected to see a lot of minimized TV stunty teams with Morg. So I discussed this with some pals and mister__joshua (who insists to take credit) came up with the idea of a Chaos Dwarf team going in with low TV as well, to deny Morg and kill all the Stunties with Tackle. So at 760k that's 6 Dwarf Blockers, 5 Hobbos and 2 RR, full stop.

First round went according to plan and I destroyed some Flings. Since then I've only been drawn against proper teams, where a proper team of my own would have been handy. Hakflem is nice but I'd rather have two Bulls against most teams... I was still lucky enough to make it to the final 4 but will need a lot of luck against Storr and his Norse. The only Morg build still in the competition is Spartako's Snotlings.

It reminds me a bit of the time when I was a n00b first coming to Blackbox and the forum was choke full of threads complaining about CPOMB and minmaxers so I started out with a minmax team of my own because I didn't want to be bringing a knife to a gunfight. I think back then I counted a total of 3 real minmax teams that I played against in my first 100 games... and that was before the scheduler change.


Well from my own experience, I thought that was overblown, and I personally can't remember ever facing a team like that and I played a lot of B. I only played one minor and already met one, so that's basically proof, right? Smile

Anecdote vs evidence of course.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2022 - 16:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Safe call. Laughing
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