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Poll
How do you feel about Min TV + Max Inducements
It's all part of the fun
49%
 49%  [ 37 ]
It's a little unethical
13%
 13%  [ 10 ]
It should be banned
10%
 10%  [ 8 ]
Morg ate all the pies!
26%
 26%  [ 20 ]
Total Votes : 75


Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 05, 2022 - 19:43 Reply with quote Back to top

the plural of anecdote is not data, as a british radio host likes to repeat

I'm sure it won't change many opinions, especially those that are not formed first-hand

but...

https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4355640
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4355656
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4343465
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4351385

STARS OP, PLZ NERF Smile

please mind, this is not intended as a boast about beating the stars, or as a taunt towards my opponents, there were, all four of them, cracking matches with great actions, and I've included 2 wins and 2 losses for me... but nonetheless 4 losses for the dreaded stars
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2022 - 11:20 Reply with quote Back to top

A couple of casualties from Morg doesn’t quite compensate for a whole team.. Though he may go on the rampage from time to time.

_________________
“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.”
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2022 - 11:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Java wrote:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4355640
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4355656
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4343465
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=4351385

STARS OP, PLZ NERF Smile


Very Happy
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2022 - 11:43 Reply with quote Back to top

I guess that depends what he's against. Against Dorfs he's only likely to get a couple of removals (Block/AV9/Thick Skull), vs an AV 7 team with little block (Skaven/Nobles/Woodies/Pro Elves/Khorne/Khemri/Vamps) I suspect he would clear half the pitch on average.

_________________
Better lucky than good
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 06, 2022 - 16:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I have been playing Halflings in our TT league. Hired Morg or Death Zone mercs every game. Finished 6-1-1. The Stars/Mercs really helped but some games they did almost nothing.

My one loss was to Dwarves. I did beat the other Dwarf team but that was because they left me a Blitz on the ball with a Tree and it worked!

_________________
Nuffle wills it.

Lyracian.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2022 - 14:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:


Very Happy


you could link a particular match now... Make this thread a compilation of star fails Razz
Rawlf



Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2022 - 11:45 Reply with quote Back to top

I would like to revive the discussion in this thread. As you may know I am running the RRRs and low TV + stars continues to be an issue there.

I am interested in finding out what the problem is. The opinion I find most often in chats is that Morg with his MB+2 is OP and produces stupid, unfunny games. I don't disagree per se, but why is that exactly? Is it Morg? MB+2? Hakflem? All stars? Snotlings? Cash? A certain combination?

To start somewhere, I tried to hand-count Morg's appearances in the RRRs that happened since the restarting in C. I found 72 matches total, of which Morg won 51 and lost 21 (win rate 70,8%). That is really good, better than any roster afaik. Even Amazons, who have the best win rate, sit somewhere in the high sixties. Snotling Morg builds could win 2 of the 12 finished tournaments (they are aspiring to more in the running ones).
So while this looks like great numbers, it needs to be said that Morg builds are mostly played by very good coaches. I am talking about tournament winning, CR 170+, legend coaches, like Spartako, Storr, Java, geggster, JB. For these guys, a win rate of 70% does not seem out of place at all. If they brought a tier 1 team like Dwarves or Orcs instead, would they really win less games?

Another thing I found is that Morg seems to work best with Snotling teams. Playing for not-snots in RRRs, Morg only won 12 out of 22 games (54,5 %) which is really far from looking overpowered.
Conversely, for snots, the record is 39 wins out of 50 games (78 %). I can see how Snotlings benefit most from this build. They rely on bashing hard and riotous rookies protect them from suffering attrition themselves. Also, the typical Snot build includes Hakflem, too, giving them an awesome ballcarrier out of the box, nullifying their biggest weakness.

So looking at all this and your own experiences in the RRRs, what is your opinion? Is the low TVv + stars build a problem at all? Is the problem just the super low TV Snotling teams? And what would you consider a sensible solution – I could think of setting a minimum TV (around 800 maybe?), reducing the number of stars allowed to 1, limiting the cash you bring upon entering the RRR (possibly to 0k gold)?

Note that I am not planning to ask Bazakastine to change the RRR format as of now, I am reluctant to do so to begin with. But I do want to keep an eye on things and would love to hear your opinions. After all, I do want the RRRs to stay as popular and well received as they are right now.
C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2022 - 12:11 Reply with quote Back to top

That's really interesting analysis. My gut feeling is the Snotlings with Hakflem and Morg is far and away the most significant 'thing to be considered'. But then again it's all entirely within the rules.

It would be interesting to know if the price increase for Hakflem and Morg has held back the Snotlings at all - I'm not sure that will have a huge impact. I guess it potentially locks you out of Riotous Rookies, or means dropping a Troll or Rerolls. Haklem, Morg and RR being 690TV doesn't leave much (2 Trolls, a Stilty and a Reroll?).
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2022 - 13:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for looking into this Rawlf.

With regards to the CR/Legend coaches, does that differ much from who usually wins RRR's?

Personally I've been very lucky in only facing a Morg + Fling team, which as you point out does not appear to be as bad. I do have an upcoming final I've been putting off vs snots though Sad

I have spec'd a lot of games, for me the issue is mostly with the RRR format, meaning most teams will not have useful skills to combat snot+morg+hacklfem (in the same way Zons are successful due to lack of Tackle/Wrestle).

I do think the MB +2 for Morg is probably key to his success (combined with, Str 6, AV 10 and numerous back up to make him hard to negate). I find it odd that RSC got removed many years ago, Claw has been nerfed and now nerfed again and yet they introduce MB +2 which does very much the same thing that was identified as problematic and removed! I think Morg with MB +1 would be troublesome, but not dominating at 380k in RRRs. I used Varag recently and have seen others use similar Str 5/6 stars. They are useful, but easily tied down and not dominating in the same way as Morg so often is.

I'd be interested to see how big a deal Hackflem is on his own. On the face of it, he's not that much better than a gutter runner, considering he has loner 4+. I don't instinctively see Hackflem + a TV 790 team as broken. He would certainly be a key threat, but I feel a manageable one. I think it's his allegiance with Morg that earns his reputation.

Griff, is the other one that gets mentioned a lot, although he's not used as often (presumably as he's not as good as Morg+Hackflem). For me, he's also going to be OP in RRR games.

Your proposals all make sense. Another option cold be to restrict the maximum gold value for Stars that will play in RRR's. I feel that makes sense fluff-wise and would still enable a lot of flexibility. Maybe a 200k per star limit.

_________________
Better lucky than good
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2022 - 13:27 Reply with quote Back to top

C0ddlefish wrote:
It would be interesting to know if the price increase for Hakflem and Morg has held back the Snotlings at all - I'm not sure that will have a huge impact. I guess it potentially locks you out of Riotous Rookies, or means dropping a Troll or Rerolls. Haklem, Morg and RR being 690TV doesn't leave much (2 Trolls, a Stilty and a Reroll?).

It doesn't seem to have made a huge difference. Don't forget Snots don't count towards TV for inducements.

_________________
Better lucky than good
maznaz



Joined: Jan 26, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2022 - 14:56 Reply with quote Back to top

I think limiting the tv range for RRRs solves the problem neatly and without changing any BB rules. Also, the fact that lots of high CR coaches choose this team is an endorsement of its strength not a counterpoint of any sort. A huge proportion of CR success is the choices you make before you even start the game.
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2022 - 19:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Kinks wrote:

I do think the MB +2 for Morg is probably key to his success (combined with, Str 6, AV 10 and numerous back up to make him hard to negate). I find it odd that RSC got removed many years ago, Claw has been nerfed and now nerfed again and yet they introduce MB +2 which does very much the same thing that was identified as problematic and removed!


RSC was removed because mutations went from Traits (Only on a double for a few rosters) to a regular skill (with access on a double for several rosters), which is the same reason Claw was nerfed.

This has no bearing on the introduction of MB+ on a few select players. Is MB+ not a good/fun introduction, and maybe largely a bad idea? Maybe, I don't know, but it doesn't really have any relation to why RSC was removed and Claw was nerfed, since you can't pick MB+ as a skill on regular players.
Kinks



Joined: Feb 28, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2022 - 19:43 Reply with quote Back to top

MiBasse wrote:
RSC was removed because mutations went from Traits (Only on a double for a few rosters) to a regular skill (with access on a double for several rosters), which is the same reason Claw was nerfed.

Not sure I follow your logic. You are correct, mutations were traits and many traits got nerfed when changed to skills (Stand Firm, Jump Up, etc). However, I think RSC was the only one removed. They didn't have to remove it. They could have left it, like Two Heads or nerfed it, like Claw. Instead they decided to remove it completely. So the removal of traits does not explain it's removal.

MiBasse wrote:
This has no bearing on the introduction of MB+ on a few select players. Is MB+ not a good/fun introduction, and maybe largely a bad idea? Maybe, I don't know, but it doesn't really have any relation to why RSC was removed and Claw was nerfed, since you can't pick MB+ as a skill on regular players.

It was more of a musing than a hard argument, Rawlf's current data far more relevant. However, it is an example of when +2 to armour and injury rolls were previously implemented in BB, so I wouldn't say it has no relevance.

_________________
Better lucky than good
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2022 - 20:13 Reply with quote Back to top

maznaz wrote:
I think limiting the tv range for RRRs solves the problem neatly and without changing any BB rules. Also, the fact that lots of high CR coaches choose this team is an endorsement of its strength not a counterpoint of any sort. A huge proportion of CR success is the choices you make before you even start the game.


What??? There will always be rosters that are stronger or weaker in different environments. By essentially taking Morg from snotlings those high CR players will simply move to the next roster they thing is the most competitive in this environment.

Next up to complain about will be Dwarfs and Amazons. Will that be a more pleasant discussion? Would you rather see these teams dominating Rookie Rumbles?

Isn't it actually refreshing to see stunty teams winning tournaments even if they are Rookie Rumbles.
BigChiefSittingDuck



Joined: Dec 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Jan 19, 2022 - 20:50 Reply with quote Back to top

You would not believe the number of pies Morg can eat for 380,000 gold pieces
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