FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Posted: Jun 22, 2022 - 19:17

"- get back the one-reroll-per-turn rule. Without it, the bloodbowl I love (which is a risk management game) simply becomes something else. "

I disagree. I am now solidly in favor of the multi-re-roll per turn, after dozens of games.

Why? Because less wins are given to an 'undeserving' enemy, and from a strategy standpoint, stalling is now more dangerous, when facing a defense with 2+ re-rolls, and scoring is easier, when you still have 2+ re-rolls. Neither of these things favor the scary dwarves we all worry about, I don't think.

IMHO, a coach who likes to be given free wins via Nuffle will not like the new multi-re-roll rule. On the flip side, a coach who does not NEED Nuffle to give free wins will appreciate the new re-roll rule. Why? On a regular basis an opening set of LoS blocks, or the first block in a defensive turn will give a set of skulls, suck away a re-roll, and set a team up for a key failure later that turn. Two sets of skulls in one turn becoming a 'game killer' was a much more frequent occurrence in BB2016 and earlier. GAME KILLER events lessen the importance of a skill differential between coaches. I cry less about MY horrid misfortune in BB2020 than I did in BB2016, and have myself and my mistakes to blame to a much greater extent.

Stalling? Elves and skaven WILL be coming for the ball at some point, which has always been scary fun, and they are now much more dangerous with the ability to fail AND proceed with the attack. Anything that makes stalling more risky adds spice, and is good.

Having a hard time making it around that boring dwarf or ork wall to score? Try any way. Humans and norse now have a greater chance of success getting past the walls with the ability to fail a 3+ dodge and proceed with the play. Anything that gives the large amount of AG3 teams a boost is good, imo. Yes, dwarves locked inside of a Guarded cage, rumbling down the field, will be more unstoppable than ever when they still have 2 or 3 re-rolls, but the consolation is that they will be more likely to be rumbling to a DRAW, as the humans are more likely to have scored, and more likely to have slowed them down well during the 1st or second drive.

I like BB2020, and Wildly Inaccurate has not ruined anything yet.

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JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jun 22, 2022 - 19:40

The_Murker wrote:

"- get back the one-reroll-per-turn rule. Without it, the bloodbowl I love (which is a risk management game) simply becomes something else. "

I disagree. I am now solidly in favor of the multi-re-roll per turn, after dozens of games.

Why? Because less wins are given to an 'undeserving' enemy, and from a strategy standpoint, stalling is now more dangerous, when facing a defense with 2+ re-rolls, and scoring is easier, when you still have 2+ re-rolls. Neither of these things favor the scary dwarves we all worry about, I don't think.

IMHO, a coach who likes to be given free wins via Nuffle will not like the new multi-re-roll rule. On the flip side, a coach who does not NEED Nuffle to give free wins will appreciate the new re-roll rule. Why? On a regular basis an opening set of LoS blocks, or the first block in a defensive turn will give a set of skulls, suck away a re-roll, and set a team up for a key failure later that turn. Two sets of skulls in one turn becoming a 'game killer' was a much more frequent occurrence in BB2016 and earlier. GAME KILLER events lessen the importance of a skill differential between coaches. I cry less about MY horrid misfortune in BB2020 than I did in BB2016, and have myself and my mistakes to blame to a much greater extent.

Stalling? Elves and skaven WILL be coming for the ball at some point, which has always been scary fun, and they are now much more dangerous with the ability to fail AND proceed with the attack. Anything that makes stalling more risky adds spice, and is good.

Having a hard time making it around that boring dwarf or ork wall to score? Try any way. Humans and norse now have a greater chance of success getting past the walls with the ability to fail a 3+ dodge and proceed with the play. Anything that gives the large amount of AG3 teams a boost is good, imo. Yes, dwarves locked inside of a Guarded cage, rumbling down the field, will be more unstoppable than ever when they still have 2 or 3 re-rolls, but the consolation is that they will be more likely to be rumbling to a DRAW, as the humans are more likely to have scored, and more likely to have slowed them down well during the 1st or second drive.

I like BB2020, and Wildly Inaccurate has not ruined anything yet.

I disagree. Now if you're lucky enough not to burn rrs due to doubleskulls, you have a much easier life in later turns.
In old bb, no matter how lucky or unlucvky you were, you only had 1 rr for the critical play anyway.

Multiple rrs mean the luckier coach gets a much higher chance of pulling stunts in the later (decisive) rounds.

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The_Murker

Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Posted: Jun 22, 2022 - 20:27

You sound like a miserable dwarf coach. Check yourself.

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JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jun 22, 2022 - 20:32

I take that as a personal insult.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jun 22, 2022 - 20:33

Multiple rr, as an aside, reduces the importance of skills such as Sure Hands, Pass, Sure Feet, Catch and makes Frenzy better than Tackle (because you can, in theory, use a rr for the first and the follow-up second 2d block, increasing the pow chance).
Moreover, allows bad coaches get away with a stupid play they didn't absolutely plan for (I experienced this in actual games), they just try stuff and go re-rolling until they succeed. With a single rr per turn you have to assess risk way better, because it's more important to do the actions in the right order.
For example, with a rr per turn, if I have a ball carrier marked by an opponent player, I tend to block/blitz him away early in the turn or even as first action. This because, with a rr per turn messing around with secondary blocks could backfire, in case you rolled a double skull and you needed to rr the block on the opponent marking your ball carrier.
With multiple rr the sequence of actions and their priority is less important.
Yes, the double skull at start of a turn then another double skull on the same turn could be gamebreaking, but it is quite a rare occurrance (and could have been fixed by allowing multiple rr ONLY to rr failures).

ClayInfinity

Joined: Aug 15, 2003

Posted: Jun 22, 2022 - 22:41

The_Murker wrote:

"- get back the one-reroll-per-turn rule. Without it, the bloodbowl I love (which is a risk management game) simply becomes something else. "

I disagree. I am now solidly in favor of the multi-re-roll per turn, after dozens of games.

Why? Because less wins are given to an 'undeserving' enemy, and from a strategy standpoint, stalling is now more dangerous, when facing a defense with 2+ re-rolls, and scoring is easier, when you still have 2+ re-rolls. Neither of these things favor the scary dwarves we all worry about, I don't think.

IMHO, a coach who likes to be given free wins via Nuffle will not like the new multi-re-roll rule. On the flip side, a coach who does not NEED Nuffle to give free wins will appreciate the new re-roll rule. Why? On a regular basis an opening set of LoS blocks, or the first block in a defensive turn will give a set of skulls, suck away a re-roll, and set a team up for a key failure later that turn. Two sets of skulls in one turn becoming a 'game killer' was a much more frequent occurrence in BB2016 and earlier. GAME KILLER events lessen the importance of a skill differential between coaches. I cry less about MY horrid misfortune in BB2020 than I did in BB2016, and have myself and my mistakes to blame to a much greater extent.

Stalling? Elves and skaven WILL be coming for the ball at some point, which has always been scary fun, and they are now much more dangerous with the ability to fail AND proceed with the attack. Anything that makes stalling more risky adds spice, and is good.

Having a hard time making it around that boring dwarf or ork wall to score? Try any way. Humans and norse now have a greater chance of success getting past the walls with the ability to fail a 3+ dodge and proceed with the play. Anything that gives the large amount of AG3 teams a boost is good, imo. Yes, dwarves locked inside of a Guarded cage, rumbling down the field, will be more unstoppable than ever when they still have 2 or 3 re-rolls, but the consolation is that they will be more likely to be rumbling to a DRAW, as the humans are more likely to have scored, and more likely to have slowed them down well during the 1st or second drive.

I like BB2020, and Wildly Inaccurate has not ruined anything yet.

I agree with all of this.

One thing I like about 2020 is stalling is harder and we haven't even taken the new Jump mechanic into account yet but also the cash incentive of 10k per TD is also a great bonus to not stall.

The DF plus TDs meta I think is a very nice aspect of 2020

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jun 22, 2022 - 22:56

10k per TD is not an incentive to score a lot, people still stall. You play for the win, not to get rich.
Jump is not a stalling-stopper either.

JackassRampant

Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Posted: Jun 22, 2022 - 23:30

The new rules ideology seems to be, "whatever we're trying to encourage, let's encourage it in several different ways, none of which by itself would be all that game-altering." Sure, 10k per TD is not a huge incentive, though it has motivated me a couple times. Sure, Jump is kind of a corner-case thing: you have to be aware of it, but it's pretty rare that it takes the game over. The random skills mechanic rewards people who seize the moment, by increasing the situationality of everything, and also by encouraging people to bank the points, as they'll lead to a discounted skill so much more quickly, but none of that is applicable to all teams, rosters, or coaches. Allowing more than one reroll per turn makes it a bit harder to stall, but there are plenty of defenses against that. Each of these individually doesn't have that much of an impact on the structure of the match, but when you put them all together, it leads to more 2-2 draws and fewer 0-0 draws, or at least that's how it feels on this end.

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Gridironman

Joined: Mar 18, 2022

Posted: Jun 22, 2022 - 23:48

I hope the rules are revised soon even though 2020 is a young edition. I like that pass is a stat, however, it is a fantasy (American) Football game. A game that does not simulate passing as an option. For instance, I know Chaos Dwarves are tough, but at least give the Hobgoblins pass access while retaining their pass 4+. It is a weak passing game, but the heart of the game is league play and I just wish it was an option to loadout a strange hobgoblin with accurate+cannoneer. It is not optimal, but it is something I want to play in a league.

Dwarf Rework
Speaking of which standard dwarves are boring, but if any team is going to be a run exclusive team make it them--but also make them interesting. Lore wise, they should have pneumatic knuckledusters as an equivalent of a gobbo chainsaw. Deinvest all that Block and tackle--but make those separate positionals. We do this by retaining dwarf blitzers (x2) should come with block and thick skull. A Dwarf defender (x2) could come with tackle and thick skull. Runners (x2) unchanged. Troll Slayer (x2) unchanged). Deathroller (x1) Unchanged. Dwarf Linemen, same as before except they now have thick skull. But let's make them a sturdy fouling team based on piece removal but without stunty frailty--now that we are past the penalties we can have fun making them strong in a less conclusive way as 2020 and 2016 editions. Dwarf Knuckleduster (x1) thick skull, secret weapon. Dwarf Rock Blaster thick skull, bombardier. This team will stay in the game with thick skulls, but absolutely wreck you. Making a separate post to discuss all the race reworks.

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PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Jun 23, 2022 - 01:09

ClayInfinity wrote:

Whilst I appreciate some people like high TV (2000k+), I think with the skill buy meta and the ability to save for Block on big guys and other juicy secondaries and Stat boosts, I think a high TV will see teams cycling thru players looking for random secondaries and cut/rebuy those that dont get lucky whilst perpetually submarining under the TV cap.

Then,.. when they get there, then they can keep their uber farmed core players and cut/rebuy the rest for, at that TV, for a very long time.

If you look at teams in C div now with 50+ games and a TV of 1400, there are some pretty brutal teams and for those of us who dont like high TV, there is nothing with a 2000k TV cap that can be done about it. You may as well not have a cap.

What I am saying is that the game is designed for a TV range of 1300-1800 and without the need to pare a team back to 1300, teams become way to heavy and selectively built.

I am not telling people they're "wrong" for how they have their fun, but C div would not be competitive, it would be an spp farming exercise that would eliminate more casual players from being successful.

Ok, cool, "we" are starting to have a conversation. This is a safe place, we can talk, talk critically about your warped Blood Bowl world view and still be friends, no, seriously, Iam serious. :}

I think I will just do this in bullet point format, I do not want to get to long winded.

*You appreciate some people like high TV, well, that comes off as a small minority of "old" guys like high tv.

*you are concerned if teams get into the 2000+TV range, where I propose the base TV redraft should be at, well they will just create a core group of players and then just hire fire all the scrubs to make a team who has a "work around" of the TV redraft mechanic. MMMM, just like real life teams do. Now, hold on, Iam not saying FUMBBL should be just like real life sports but we cannot deny that Blood Bowl is based on American Football with a euro rugby twist. The reality of real life sports is and the economics of those sports (TV) plays out every day on our sports news stations. Who is getting transferred, who is getting "cut", who is retiring?

So, you seem to have a issue with a team who can sit at 2000tv redraft budget for lets say 80 games with their core players, some of their players might reach legend level.

Why is that bad? why is it bad for FUMBBL? Iam serious...how is this bad for the community of FUMBBL coaches?

*You talk about how teams INYO are really tough and brutal at the 1400 TV range right now based on teams who are currently playing in the C div.

Then you couple it with your view that Blood Bowl actually is a 1400-1800 tv range game. Is that to make it "fair"? does TV really make games "fair"? the ability of coaches is way more important than TV, we all know this deep down.

I will take you at your word that you are really not telling people how they should enjoy FUMBBL or just playing this great game of Blood Bowl. But, sir, when you say that the C div is not a competitive because they could make teams that are just SPP farms and bloat up to a 2000+TV range and some how that unbalances the game? Well, that comes off as a coach who says I do not like to play in C/B because some coaches like high TV, make high SPP players, farm, pick, and........... to many complaints to list here.

For me sir, you are the typical (L) style player who cant handle the open nature of C/B. You deeply want to play in the biggest leagues on FUMBBL which are actually C/B but you cant handle the meta. To the point that the meta Iam advocating for that C/B should have a base redraft of at least 2000TV.

Iam saying that every coach on this site has the "choice" of playing what ever TV level they desire.

BUT

Do not tell me Iam exiled from C/B play if I want my teams to go over an X level or 1800TV and if I do I need to talk to Kodah and join some god forsaken L div league.....No offense Kodah, i do like you.

As the Unofffical historian of FUMBBL iam deeply concerned about the long and storied history of some the greatest teams and coaches who have ever played Blood Bowl on this site getting, gimped, cut down to size and reduced to some paltry shadow of its former glory. I know Iam a old FUMBBL coach, I love the history of though of the teams who have been created, competed, battled it out in majors. The glorious moments of watching tournaments as a spectator. I have witnessed some of the most glorious moments of Blood Bowl history on this site.

Yes, for me, it comes down to a redraft of a 2000TV in C/B. that is how you make legend teams. If you happen to be a good to great coach maybe you can guide them to glory in FUMMBL majors. I will be watching and recording your epic run to greatness.

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PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Jun 23, 2022 - 01:17

Ok, back to the main purpose of this thread...Iam pissed off that this whole BB2020 conversion crap is taking so long as to the point of shutting down C/B play, shutting down major tournaments and that my avatar on FUMBBl, Milford, as been put out of a job living on the govt dole and his soul is being sucked out by this rule set.

The powers that be MUST....MUST run a FUMBBL cup this October. TV be damned and # of entrants be damned....IT HAS TO HAPPEN!!!!

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JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jun 23, 2022 - 01:30

PainState wrote:

As the Unofffical historian of FUMBBL iam deeply concerned about the long and storied history of some the greatest teams and coaches who have ever played Blood Bowl on this site getting, gimped, cut down to size and reduced to some paltry shadow of its former glory. I know Iam a old FUMBBL coach, I love the history of though of the teams who have been created, competed, battled it out in majors. The glorious moments of watching tournaments as a spectator. I have witnessed some of the most glorious moments of Blood Bowl history on this site.

Ok, I'll just say it and hope JackDaniels, Alibaba and PeteW won't take it the wrong way:
Competitive Eaters games were dull.
Extraordinary Brotherhood games were dull.
Marvel Superheroes games were dull.

As a coach who once enjoyed some sort of fame on this site in Ranked despite not winning anything and only reaching 270TR (Yeah, I said TR) with the Hellfish once, I am firmly in the "celebrate the coaches, not the teams" camp.
Once Bloodbowl reaches certain TVs, all the supposed balance (assuming it was at all there before) just breaks apart hard. Yeah, A MA10 surefeet sprint ag6 elven catcher is funny the first ten times. But when it singlehandedly wins a Major, it is not. Yeah, a full claw/mb team is funny the first twenty times. But once it singlehandedly crushes EVERY other team on this site in the first half, it is not.

I understand your love for legendary teams. But I don't think that legendary translates well into "high tv". Give me teams with a great w/t/l not spoiled by picking over the course of hundreds of games, and I'll gladly call them legendary, and bow to their coaches. Give me a multiple Blackbox winner, and I'll bow to him.

But a tv 2800 team entering a Major? Or having a tv2000 BASE redraft? That shit was funny when I was twenty, but now I'm forty.

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PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Jun 23, 2022 - 01:35

JanMattys wrote:

But a tv 2800 team entering a Major? Or having a tv2000 BASE redraft? That shit was funny when I was twenty, but now I'm forty.

As I said, we are having a conversation. Jan? where would like the C/B redraft base TV be set at?

All the other stuff you said, Iam cool with it. Yes, I focus on teams and not coaches, coaches get their "props" if their teams win stuff. Unlike you and me playing stupid humans and getting our teeth kicked in.

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JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jun 23, 2022 - 01:41

PainState wrote:

JanMattys wrote:

But a tv 2800 team entering a Major? Or having a tv2000 BASE redraft? That shit was funny when I was twenty, but now I'm forty.

As I said, we are having a conversation. Jan? where would like the C/B redraft base TV be set at?

All the other stuff you said, Iam cool with it. Yes, I focus on teams and not coaches, coaches get their "props" if their teams win stuff. Unlike you and me playing stupid humans and getting our teeth kicked in.

I am having a blast with our League with a 1350 redraft. We'v been doing it for a few seasons now. I know it seems low to you, but it's a nice point of balance. Teams usually get to 1650-1750 tv before the redraft (16 games), and have to choose three-four stars for the next season (or even just two-three if they have two seasons careers already), and get new players for the team. I kept two mummies a wight and a ghoul on my undead last season, and barely made it to 1350 with a lot of zombies at the start.

Playing between 1350 and 1750 is (imho) where Bloodbowl shines. There's plenty of skills in the last games (my ballcarrier is a block dodge surehands surefeet tackle sidestep ghoul for example, all chosen), but there's still some balance that keeps things interesting. We have elves and we have skaven, but we also have different bashers, and it seems that it's a sweet spot where nobody can really benefit from a "position income", so to speak.

Get higher than that, and imho things start to get shaky.

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PainState

Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Posted: Jun 23, 2022 - 01:47

Well if a 1350 base redraft with a 16 game season produces a 300-400+ TV increase before redraft.

why not set the base to lets say 1600 or 1700TV?

that way every coach has the ability to play in C/B at what ever TV level they want?

Do you think if the base TV level was raised to let say TV 1650...That some teams would drop off because that high of a TV is out of their optimum range and that other teams would then become to powerful because in the range of TV they are now at their zenith of TV optimization.

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