FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Posted: Jul 20, 2022 - 20:05

Looks very clean, timings obviously will be adjusted later.
Are we losing the page that shows the previous blackbox draws? (Not a big deal, just a query).

The last page showing a game being made (with presumably a launch button/link later) is a vast improvement for box, where it was genuinely possible to completely miss that you'd been matched.

Kudos.

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JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Jul 20, 2022 - 20:08

Sp00keh wrote:

I don't like the idea of Box style teams facing Ranked style teams, and not being able to do anything about it

The stats always showed that R teams had higher average TV than B
I don't want to side-track about which was better, but it does dilute the point of the 'blind match making only' .. if its ... not that

Bear with me but... I don't really understand the difference.
The Blackbox was NEVER "true blind match making". It was always tv-matching. True blind match making would mean to put all teams in a big ballot box and pick pairs at random till nothing remains.

The truth is that those blackbox purists want "purity" within their own definition of purity. They want random matchmaking but they also want balanced tv matching... They want to be able to tell everybody "I play random opponents" without really accepting the "random" part. They try and minmax their team knowing that the closer the opponent tv is to theirs, the better chances they will have to prevail. But that's not random, that's tv-based-matchmaking with a pinch of minmaxing to counter the inability to pick gf-style.

So, in the end, who cares if a "true Blackbox" will also match with a "mixed"? It will be tv-matched anyway so even if it's true that mixed or gf teams will have higher avarage, that won't matter.

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MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jul 21, 2022 - 00:58

Playing Amazons with the possibility of avoiding Tackle spam teams is way different from playing Amazons in a blind TV match-making.
It's just an example to explain that, even if the Box is TV-matchmaking and not totally blind, on the other hand the Box doesn't provide the control on the next opponent and team, unlike a GF system.
Blind means, in this context: "without the possibility to pick the race and the opponent".
It's still more blind than the GF, where you can pick TV, race and opponent (3 factors, while in the Box in theory you have control only over the TV, and not always because TV-gap matches can still happen), and thus more challenging than a challenge system (horrible pun, I know, I have a knack for them, sorry!).
In the Box the win rates of the same coaches used to be lower than in Ranked, not by coincidence.
If you remove the possibility of picking race and opponent the games tend to be harder to play (but easier to find).

About the different win rate in GF and Box: well, although it doesn't matter in practical terms, it does when I want to know who is the best coach for a specific race to watch his replays.
If everybody played only Box games the win rate would be more accurate and the rankings as well.
Since the system will be a hybrid GF-Box MM I will never be sure about the win rates whenever I check the rankings.

Last edited by MattDakka on %b %21, %2022 - %11:%Jul; edited 1 time in total

MerryZ

Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Posted: Jul 21, 2022 - 11:09

There will be trophy runs when scheduler comes.

That will be more accurate way of ranking best coaches.

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.

Storr

Joined: Mar 25, 2020

Posted: Jul 21, 2022 - 12:35

The best way of finding out who the best coach with a given race is, is to ask AD anyway.

Deluge

Joined: Aug 21, 2014

Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 11:31

PainState wrote:

Deluge wrote:

Secondly I'd like to voice my protest against mixing scheduled teams ("Strict" / blackbox spinning) and GF teams (hunting for 30% halfling coaches). It seems abusable and to me would give a less pure feeling to making strict teams, if I anyway get paired up with open teams.

I thought the big argument 2 years ago was to merge R/B? So now you throw out that "picking" should be abolished.

I think this is a big step forward on FUMBBL that you are now allowed to pick/schedule a match in the C div. "We" will see after some time what survives.I suspect that the dynamic will not change that much...I do suspect that "picking" matches will decline because most coaches just want to play some Blood Bowl and will activate for scheduled matches/BOX because they see they can get a match in 2 minutes.

I voiced my opinion about mixing the two. I never said anything about abolishing the idea of picking your games.

Imagine having a "strict" team and trying to qualify. You're pairing up against a dwarf team with 11x MB, Guard and SF, all rolled perfectly on random skillups for 10k TV each. You then see that the team has played 20 games in the game picker and only against amazons and stunty teams.

It always sucks meeting a min-maxed team, but if it's a min-maxed team that hasn't been playing against the same opponents as I have to get to where it is, then there's no point to having a box at all. It's a blackbox because you close the lid and don't let outsiders in.

JanMattys wrote:

Bear with me but... I don't really understand the difference.
The Blackbox was NEVER "true blind match making". It was always tv-matching. True blind match making would mean to put all teams in a big ballot box and pick pairs at random till nothing remains.

The truth is that those blackbox purists want "purity" within their own definition of purity. They want random matchmaking but they also want balanced tv matching... They want to be able to tell everybody "I play random opponents" without really accepting the "random" part. They try and minmax their team knowing that the closer the opponent tv is to theirs, the better chances they will have to prevail. But that's not random, that's tv-based-matchmaking with a pinch of minmaxing to counter the inability to pick gf-style.

So, in the end, who cares if a "true Blackbox" will also match with a "mixed"? It will be tv-matched anyway so even if it's true that mixed or gf teams will have higher avarage, that won't matter.

I doubt anyone in the blackbox wants to play completely random opponents. We understand that min-maxing your TV is a dominant strategy and at after 15 games played you can get paired against any TV opponent. It's all part of the game.

Yes we want purity, because playing on the same playing field just makes sense. To me it has nothing to do with bragging rights and records, it has something to do with the feel and the validity of the game.
If you and I play a game of bowling, but you're playing with the bumpers up and I'm not, we're simply not playing the same game and I won't be taking the game seriously. Will we have fun? Sure! Let's drink a few beers and have a fun game. But it won't be a serious game and that to me is a big difference.

So in the end, who cares? I care. I won't play in the C div on fumbbl if the only blackbox option is to play mixed against "ranked pickers" as well. And since I don't have the reliable space in my calendar to play tournaments, it means I won't play fumbbl at all.

Java

Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 12:41

Deluge wrote:

You're pairing up against a dwarf team with 11x MB, Guard and SF, all rolled perfectly on random skillups for 10k TV each. You then see that the team has played 20 games in the game picker and only against amazons and stunty teams.

In today's edition of things that will never happen... Wink

It's far more likely that that dwarf team has developed that way by playing scheduler only matches, in fact it used to be the case that Ranked dwarf teams were the hardest to get games with, and keen dorfs stuck to box with a captive opponent.

Box without the trophy is a race to the bottom. During the time between the last trophy and the implementation of C it became monothematic, everyone just rolling in with the most reliable bash teams, feeding on the few remaining unsuspecting victims, or among themselves. Even when the trophy was active the sharks were lurking.

Picking and choosing isn't half bad actually, it cements the community, it allows for more variety.

Even the argument that picking can be used to cheat the rankings doesn't stand to scrutiny, you can do that only to the extent that you're willing not to play ever again outside of L, otherwise you'll eventually drop, it's inevitable.

Spartako rose several times to #2 through box grinding, only to lose the key match that would have topped Mount Goo, repeatedly.

ArrestedDevelopment has written several times on the topic that Box was actually pickier than ranked, but psychologically it feels fairer because there is no explicit choice.

PurpleGoo has said a few times that if he cared about boosting his ranking he would have been grinding box.

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 13:03

If Box is pickier than GF then I want to see Box Amazons never ever playing vs Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs.
If that happens, then Box is pickier.
Also, it's better if everybody finds games by using an automatic scheduler, because that way the pairing criteria are the same for everybody, thus fairer.
If you let people use GF then they could avoid bad match-ups. It's a fact.
Anyway, if GF is less pickier than Box, I suggest to let Trophy teams arrange games with the GF, not just with the Box, and see what happens.

MerryZ

Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 13:21

You mean that if everyone finds games by scheduler, it's fairer to farming tier1 teams ?

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.

Java

Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 13:26

I don't know about all that, there's a fair amount of tenuous causal links in those sentences

an actual fact is that the guy who kept saying gamefinder only coaches had unfairly high rankings dropped a lot since box wasn't an option anymore

anyway I'm only reporting what others, more qualified, have said; you can try to argue with them, not me

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Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 13:27

MerryZ wrote:

You mean that if everyone finds games by scheduler, it's fairer to farming tier1 teams ?

What do you mean with "farming", considering that with Season Re-Draft farming is harder? Also, tier 1 teams don't need farming, they already start strong as they are.
Farming helps the teams lacking core skills.

@Java: In GF I can't play vs good coaches most of times. So when I win I win few CR points, the rare times I lose I lose lot of CR points. Also, I was on top rankings some time ago, if I stopped I would be still there because there is no ranking decay. If I wanted I could have done that and be forever top 5-10.
Also, I don't cycle tier 1 teams, as some top coaches do, that doesn't help either.
Feel free to play vs me, since I'm easy win.

Last edited by MattDakka on %b %27, %2022 - %13:%Jul; edited 1 time in total

Java

Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 13:36

Never said that. You extrapolate too much and miss the point, as usual.

Already had 6 teeth extracted, thanks but no thanks.

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Vlad Von Carstein's door-to-door evangelist

Randobot

Joined: Mar 04, 2013

Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 18:01

Christer wrote:

Ok, to clarify the team "modes":

"Strict" - Only scheduled by the blackbox, and will not be visible in the normal gamefinder
"Mixed" - Both blackbox and gamefinder, will show in gamefinder and will be activated for the box
"Open" - Only gamefinder, will show in gamefinder but will not be activated in the box

Will a strict team ever play a non-strict team?

There are a lot of debates raging here and I don't quite understand the debate. If strict is only strict than strict is like box.

Maybe the point of clarity is on "team mode". If team mode is selected exclusively like C or R or B and can never be changed than strict is what some posters seem to be asking for.

Perhaps I missed something? That's how I read it.

Nelphine

Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 19:35

A strict team can play any team in the scheduler. A mixed team can play in gamefinder, and then use the scheduler to play a strict team.

Kondor

Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Posted: Jul 27, 2022 - 20:55

I am so excited for this new automatic scheduler to go live. I really hope it goes live before BB3 hits the market.