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Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 11, 2022 - 21:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Can you provide links to the matches or the teams
I'm enjoying this all vicariously

Can you announce when the finals match is might be fun to spectate
MisterFurious



Joined: Aug 11, 2010

Post   Posted: Sep 11, 2022 - 21:21 Reply with quote Back to top

https://fumbbl.com/p/group?op=view&group=1275&p=tournaments

Click on the green 'D' to watch the replay.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 12, 2022 - 03:01 Reply with quote Back to top

sorry, this hasn't been my finest time around with links. i'll try to do better for the next majors!
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 12, 2022 - 04:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
sorry, this hasn't been my finest time around with links. i'll try to do better for the next majors!


Is it worth fixing my old match banners?

C20 - Tzeentch's Fateweavers
(Chaos Dwarf - 1500TV)
Image
Astrolonim

2 - 1

(5/3/0) - (0/1/1)
Report/Replay


[C] NAF big guys
(Ogre - 1520TV)
Image
Strider84


Altdorf Morlocks 2020
(Underworld Denizens - 1090TV)
Image
Lautrehamon

2 - 1

(3/0/0) - (2/1/0)
Report/Replay


Xlanhuapec Smashmouth
(Lizardmen- 1650TV)
Image
Joost

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Image
[OLC16] Open League - No TV limit! - Join NOW!


Last edited by koadah on Sep 12, 2022 - 04:23; edited 2 times in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 12, 2022 - 04:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Ulthuan Invitational XVIII Final!

C20 - Tzeentch's Fateweavers
(Chaos Dwarf- 1160TV)
Image
Astrolonim

vs

Altdorf Morlocks 2020

(Underworld Denizens- 1290TV)
Image
Lautrehamon

_________________
Image
[OLC16] Open League - No TV limit! - Join NOW!
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 12, 2022 - 04:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Those are absolutely the ones I love. If you have more you want to do them, I would certainly plan to use them in the future.
BeanBelly



Joined: Nov 14, 2019

Post   Posted: Sep 12, 2022 - 10:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Perfect Koadah, those match banners are the bomb i.e. woefully under-priced and totally dominating the forum threads.

_________________
Painting myself into a corner
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 12, 2022 - 11:24 Reply with quote Back to top

I dunno. Could be a lot of work.

Two teams under 1300 for a Majors Final? Looks like it's seriously bugged.

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[OLC16] Open League - No TV limit! - Join NOW!
Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 12, 2022 - 21:56 Reply with quote Back to top

So I'm curious how often the overdog on prematch CTV was the winner in this event.
In CRP/BB2016 inducements weren't good enough to equalize a big CTV differential it made games closer but more often the overdog won.

I had asked early in this thread if being lower TV and inducing a star was the 'winning strategy' for this major.

We have some lower TV teams in the finals though looks like the Chaos dwarf team may have lost a probably levelled up bull centaur during a long run of around 40 games.

Also curious how often the big three stars (or maybe 4 if you include Bomma) were the key to victory in various matchups.

I'm personally mostly of the mind I'd take 10 selected (or 20 random!) skills over a 200 TV ish star player. But curious how it played out in this event.
wintergreen13



Joined: Apr 10, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2022 - 00:18 Reply with quote Back to top

On the previous page the total wins/losses for teams who took stars was 27-27 (though Bomber helped the win side immensely). I'm sure a few have been played since then but it felt like overall (and with the caveat that this is a very small sample size) the stars didn't necessarily disrupt things just on their own. At least, it isn't an auto-win just to have brought a star along for a match. You still have to manage TV appropriately for your team and coach them well.

Of course, just looking at wins and losses doesn't actually answer the question you asked: whether they were the key to victory for the matches that were won with those particular stars. And honestly that isn't an easy metric to decide: how do you define being the key to victory? In some cases, yes, it might be easy to see (i.e. Morg has 6 cas in the first half; Bomber blows up the entire cage and kills the ball carrier) but in others it might be more subtle. It would probably take a considerable amount of analysis to decide which matches swung on the presence of a star.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2022 - 10:22 Reply with quote Back to top

"key to victory" - You simply can not determine this for any given match

All you can do is gather enough data to show if stars help teams win or not, overall
Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2022 - 16:22 Reply with quote Back to top

wintergreen13 wrote:
On the previous page the total wins/losses for teams who took stars was 27-27 (though Bomber helped the win side immensely). I'm sure a few have been played since then but it felt like overall (and with the caveat that this is a very small sample size) the stars didn't necessarily disrupt things just on their own. At least, it isn't an auto-win just to have brought a star along for a match. You still have to manage TV appropriately for your team and coach them well.
.


Thank you my apologies I thought I was keeping up with this thread but missed a page.

"Key to Victory" was really an oversimplification of the question "Are stars actually 'overpowered' in BB 2020 such that they provide a significant competitive advantage to the team taking them against a team without them, and thus is the best strategy in a major or otherwise to keep the team as small as possible to hire them."

I don't know that we have a lot of data on most of the stars individually but overall feels like 27-27 argues not a major advantage. Appreciate the excellent analysis done by @Astrolonim and the effort in trying to figure out which were treasury bought vs pure CTV inducements.

I do think the breakdown of which star were taken and their individual WL argues it's the big 4 that are the ones people perceive as being most useful (Bomma also is just flat out easier to fit then anyone else) - and their W-L seems to argue more useful then most other stars.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2022 - 16:43 Reply with quote Back to top

any thoughts on how this analysis compares to my discussion here:

https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=763307#763307
Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 13, 2022 - 17:27 Reply with quote Back to top

It's an interesting question
Bomber is the most frequent seen star in this event and the most underpriced in your analysis. but he's also the cheapest star by a decent margin.

Griff and Hakflem and Morg were the next most frequent stars in practice and are not the most underpriced in your analysis.

I think cost/skills/stats ratio probably doesn't reflect utility well. Griff/Hakflem/Morg do really useful things really well (score/kill) whereas other Stars that may be more underpriced in price/stats analysis functionally don't fill those roles as well For example Deeproot also has MB+2 and is more underpriced then Morg in your analysis but is really slow and lower agility so he probably doesn't function as well as a blitzing/blocking piece.
Astrolonim



Joined: Sep 08, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 14, 2022 - 00:34 Reply with quote Back to top

I personally think Bomber is amazing but not related to your tv - you can buy him every match as the overdog. Morg is certainly great but very expensive. Hakflem is also good but IMO he is a worse version of bomber. I would suggest Griff is actually the #2 star. He is terrifying. Low usage due to not that many teams having access and being expensive though.

I think higher TV is an advantage, but probably not if you're Underworld, like my opponent (lautrehamon). I was even TV in most of my matches in the major - I was about 1450 before the semis match (lost a frenzy sf guard block bull, as Garion speculated). I would guess low TV in this major is a combo of better stunty teams (a lot of UW and goblins, who are low-tv teams) and not that much time in the bb2020 ruleset.
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