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remetagross



Joined: Mar 09, 2023

Post   Posted: Mar 26, 2023 - 19:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks, Mekutata. Would you say the prices we see here are about stabilized ? If yes, then we see that Bomber's equilibrium price falls at 90k. That's interesting, because on these forums I'm often seeing that Bomber's price should really be set to about 100k,sometimes a little higher than that. Of course, that 90k price is set by the "law of free market" in a market where all teams are Goblins. It might end up a bit differently in an all-comers environment. Still, this shows that the conventional wisdom about Bomber's actual worth is not far off what we see in practice here.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 16, 2023 - 01:03 Reply with quote Back to top

After a discord discussion, we've increased the price of Baleful Hex from 60k to 90k, under the assumption that it's nearly as good as a wizard. (Note, sidestep is normally only 10k, but because baleful hex + sidestep work together so well, she's charged 40k for it.)

This moves Estelle up into the best category of stars.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 22, 2023 - 18:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Updated new vampire stars

Also, editted price of Lord Borak's sneaky git.
remetagross



Joined: Mar 09, 2023

Post   Posted: Sep 25, 2023 - 13:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not sold on Luthor starting off of a Wight. It makes more sense to take a Vamp blitzer to me.

How about you looked at it this way.

1. Let's determine the value of Bloodlust (3+). Take a Mummy, add MA+2 (+20k) and Ag +1 (+20k), swap mighty blow for claw, add frenzy (+20k), that's 185k. Or, take a werewolf, substract MA-3 (-30k) and Ag-1 (-20k), add in Str +2 (100k) and AV+1(10k). That's 185k again.

Hence, Bloodlust (3+) is worth -35k.

2. From Vamp blitzer to Luthor you have Str+1 (80k), AV+1 (10k), swap juggernaut for block (free), add sidestep (+20k), remove Bloodlust 3+ (+35k), add Star of the show (+10k) and PA +1 (5k). That's 270k.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 25, 2023 - 13:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Given our lack of experience with bloodlust, I'm unwilling to guess at its price. Trying to go from a werewolf to a vargheist requires too many stat changes, so I wouldn't use that comparison. Trying to go from a mummy to a vargheist, +ma is 20k per upgrade, so that's 205, and +Ag is 40, so that's 225. Frenzy on a mummy is 40k, 245k.

In addition, negatrais are normally percentage based, not flat costs. The more expensive you make Luthor, the more that bloodlust costs, which means 95k, becomes 95k on a player that only ends up 150k. That's around 40%, so Luthor's bloodlust would be even more.

So bloodlust could be 40% in that version, but, I wouldn't use a vamp blitzer as the base anyway, because I avoid adding or removing traits whenever possible, and with the choice being to remove a trait we have no experience with, or add a trait that we've already got priced elsewhere in this guide with general acceptance, I'm going to choose the latter. But if I did, 40% of a player that ends up at 235k is 160k, or 395k total for Luthor.

Plus, Luthor can be taken by other teams, so there's no need to try to pigeonhole him into a player from the vampire roster.
remetagross



Joined: Mar 09, 2023

Post   Posted: Sep 25, 2023 - 19:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Okay, fair point about Bloodlust, I guess that means we'll see in the coming weeks how to price it.

Do you have a general guideline for how to compute price increases?

Because instead of starting from a Wight, you could start from an Amazon Jaguar Blocker (the closest stat array player I guess). Then, that'd be 110k+40k(Ag+1)+0k(Dodge swapped for Block)+0k(Defensive swapped for Sidestep)+10k(Regeneration, looking at the price difference between Gors and Pestigors)+60k(Hypnogaze as I've seen you've priced it for Eldril)+80k(Str increase)+20k(+AV)+10k(Pa+2) and that'd amount to 310k. Then, Luthor is 10% too expensive.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 25, 2023 - 20:00 Reply with quote Back to top

sure, but i'd also like to compare to .. Griff. Which one is a better player? Griff is awesome, but +1ST and hypno gaze is FANTASTIC.. i'd argue that Luthor, in comparison, should be more expensive than Griff. In terms of how 'good' Luthor is for his price, I agree he's not as good as Griff. But if we compare to other players, say, Varag, I'd say Luthor is definitely better.

So I'm happy both with how I get my 400k (basing it on a player that minimizes the number of traits needed, and is a player on a team that can actually get the star), and where it actually places him on the scale.

to be clear, what i'm looking at is, if you have enough money for the star, but nothing else, which star is the best?

i think ivan is clearly way ahead of the other stars; is luthor better than chaney? not sure. is luthor better than varag? absolutely.

that puts luthor somewhere in the -8 to -15% range. this version has -15%, but i'm definitely open to changing that, but not by as much as you were suggesting


Last edited by Nelphine on Sep 25, 2023 - 20:16; edited 2 times in total
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 25, 2023 - 20:13 Reply with quote Back to top

(also, i won't compare anything to a Jaguar, as they are underpriced by somewhere between 30 and 50k Razz )
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 25, 2023 - 20:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, picking what is arguably the best model for cost in the game, top 5 minimum, probably isnt the best way to start an evaluation.
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 25, 2023 - 20:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm curious. With negatraits counting as a %, wouldn't exception (good) traits not work better as a % then too?
Hypno gaze is the one that stands out to me because it isn't a 'one use' thing like most star player special abilities, it adds an entire new facet of gameplay where it, for sacking, is almost like gaining additional blitzes in a turn. Its one of those skills thats better on the players that are already good too because it forces base contact afterwards. A S1 gazer is going to get bopped pretty hard the next turn vs the vamp st4 blodgefirm.
So kind of like how negatraits reduce the overall performance and thus hurt more on expensive players, hypnogaze probably adds more to already good players.

Not sure it changes the calculations all that much.

Also, Bloodlust is extra hard to get a feel for because only 1 team has access to Thralls, so for every undead, non-vampire team, bloodlust is extremely bad but for vamps its only kinda bad.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 25, 2023 - 21:27 Reply with quote Back to top

yeah, the idea is that a positive thing needs to be a flat amount, so it can't be given to a S1 player and then state 'look hypno gaze is only worth 20k on a snotling!'

basically good things are always as expensive as in the best situation, while negatives are always as cheap as in the worst situation.
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2023 - 00:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Ahhh ok, I guess that's fair. Otherwise you open up a can of worms with stuff like stats. Like AV or MV get much better with extra strength or agility respectively. Would be way too difficult to handle mobile variables like that.
remetagross



Joined: Mar 09, 2023

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2023 - 11:03 Reply with quote Back to top

It already is. You can see in the example of Nelphine's Zug pricing hom going from MA 7 to MA 6 is not priced the same as going from MA 5 to MA 4. Not all MA increases or decreases are worth the same (which is very sensible).
Carthage



Joined: Mar 18, 2021

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2023 - 16:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Not exactly what I meant, but Im satisfied with the feedback anyways Smile

I know this also probably diverges from the intent of making these apple to apple comparisons but wouldn't the Bloodlust stars be much much worse on non-vampire teams? I briefly mentioned it above, but wanted to hit it twice to make sure I'm understanding the rule correctly. This is a bit more extreme than "hakflem is less useful on skaven because they already have gutter runners" kind of thing. If bloodlust only can bite thralls or your turn ends, then activating Karina has a 1/6 chance of causing a turnover with no way to bite a thrall to prevent it. Seems like a much worse negatrait than a vampire thrower's bloodlust since they'll always have access to thralls.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 26, 2023 - 17:04 Reply with quote Back to top

sure, but Karina has to be priced for the best team that can take her, not the worst

so Hakflem is priced for chaos dwarves, not skaven. Karina is priced for Vampires, not Khemri.
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