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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 15:31 Reply with quote Back to top

ben_awesome wrote:
I think you missed that the black gobbo doesn't have sneaky git and given the buff bombs got you may need to introduce a cost for this.


sorry, he does NOT have sneaky git? i thought he did?

and i can't give any cost for bombs - i have to base it on the base player (goblin bomma) who presumably has a cost based on the new bomb changes.
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 17:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Black Gobbo's Sneakiest of the Lot can be a great skill, based on what he did in our leeg I wouldn't dare to call him overpriced

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Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 17:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:

sorry, he does NOT have sneaky git? i thought he did?

He does have Sneaky Git.

Nelphine wrote:

and i can't give any cost for bombs - i have to base it on the base player (goblin bomma) who presumably has a cost based on the new bomb changes.

The problem is whatever value you use as the base line you still have Stab to add and Secret Weapon to remove.

He is a problem player. You have costed him as a bomber who can do other things. From his special I wonder if he is intended as a Fouler who can occasionally stab/bomb? To me he has been costed with all these skills at full price withouth any thought to a discount for action economy (he can only do one thing a turn).


Baseline.. Goblin Bomma? 45k
+60k Sneaky Git, Disturbing Presence, Side Step
+30k +PA, +AV
+40k Remove Secret Weapon
+40k Stab
+10k Sneakiest of the Lot
Total: 225k

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 17:54 Reply with quote Back to top

sure, but sneakiest of the lot price is based over say, 50 games. block on a str 4 player is 20k. over 50 games, is sneakiest of the lot better than block on a str 4 player for winning games?

alternatively, hypnotic gaze on ag 2+ is 60k; is sneakiest of the lot as good as hypnotic gaze on ag 2+ over 50 games?


Last edited by Nelphine on Aug 03, 2022 - 17:58; edited 1 time in total
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 17:58 Reply with quote Back to top

oh i forgot about removing secret weapon, good call. a goblin bomma has secret weapon, which is valued at 2/5 of the total price. their price is 45k, so secret weapon is worth 30k on that player. i'll update his price accordingly

i'm still leaving stab at 10k, because of the dark elf assassin pricing.

without dirty player, i simply can't see fouling as his main role. bombardier is still too good, regardless of what they wanted him to be.

Edit: that helps a lot, brings him down to only 17% over. and he does have a ton of specials, so i can see why he'd be overpriced to be sure of not being TOO good.
Lyracian



Joined: Oct 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 18:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
oh i forgot about removing secret weapon, good call.

Your welcome

Nelphine wrote:

without dirty player, i simply can't see fouling as his main role. bombardier is still too good, regardless of what they wanted him to be.

Sneaky Git is very good however I expect the game designers did not quite realise now good bombs were going to be either!

Nelphine wrote:

Edit: that helps a lot, brings him down to only 17% over. and he does have a ton of specials, so i can see why he'd be overpriced to be sure of not being TOO good.

It is a fine line between Hakflem and Gretchen. The same way they have increased the cost of a few Stars it would be good if they decreased the cost of others so they would see play.

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mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 18:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
sure, but sneakiest of the lot price is based over say, 50 games. block on a str 4 player is 20k. over 50 games, is sneakiest of the lot better than block on a str 4 player for winning games?

alternatively, hypnotic gaze on ag 2+ is 60k; is sneakiest of the lot as good as hypnotic gaze on ag 2+ over 50 games?


It's not that simple. It's a skill that can make the whole team better. Obviously can simply result in a ban.
I think he is a fun star, as he changes the meta. Probably one of the few gud Star Player Special skills as it doesn't just add a random Re-Roll but adds an option that you wouldn't have otherwise.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 19:08 Reply with quote Back to top

i agree on all parts.. except for actual effectiveness. without dirty player, it simply isn't that good. its cool, its neat, its a much better special ability than most other stars.. but it's not actually that GOOD. the black gobbo simply wouldn't be any worse if he lost that skill (although the flavor is amazing). i'm going to leave it at 10k for now.
mekutata



Joined: May 03, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 19:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
i agree on all parts.. except for actual effectiveness. without dirty player, it simply isn't that good. its cool, its neat, its a much better special ability than most other stars.. but it's not actually that GOOD. the black gobbo simply wouldn't be any worse if he lost that skill (although the flavor is amazing). i'm going to leave it at 10k for now.


Well, maybe your other fouling player has Dirty Player. And I have seen it in a full season, it CAN BE QUITE GUD!

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 19:19 Reply with quote Back to top

well, if you've got a full season of 10+ games, over a wide variety of opponents where the average AV is 9+, and a decent chunk of them have regen, block, or dodge, and that skill was pivotal in a significant number of wins, that would bring it up to 30-40k. if it was a helpful skill that definitely impacted almost all the games, that would be 20k. if all it does is an extra stun a few times, and the main fouler is the one that actually does anything, or the black gobbo ends up being more useful using his other skills.. that's 10k.

every time i've seen him, all i can think of is 'wow, he is a really really really bad version of bomber' and sneakiest of the lot never mattered at all - it's like having a re-roll on your foul, except you can get both players sent off on the same turn, and the second foul doesn't have dirty player

as a comparison: dirty player (+2) is only worth 40k (it has a pivotal impact on many games). kaboom is only 20k (if it works well, it can be pivotal, but most of the time, its just reliably helpful)
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 20:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Gloriel, Karla, Zolcath, Grashnak and Grim are very rarely seen on the pitch, advising people to always take them if possible doesn't sit well with me as it might be misleading.

I'm not going to look for ways to knock them down a peg but maybe that line should be a little higher. Grim probably could be based off a Bloodseeker or a Ulfwerener and be valued much less.

Varag and Borak are probably overshadowed by Morg. Borak in particular doesn't look very usable, I foul with him because it's fun, not because it's the best move - you're risking a very costly piece for very little returns most of the time. Without fouling, he's (just?) a no-negatrait block ogre.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 20:10 Reply with quote Back to top

the idea here is that, despite not seeing them on the pitch, they are actually excellent for their price - assuming you would take a similar, regular player. For instance, as long as you'll ever pick a +S troll slayer, grim is actually very very good for his price. If you won't take a +S troll slayer in the first place, that's fine.

Gloriel similarly, is far better than any wood elf thrower of similar price - every useful skill is covered, so if you would use a wood elf thrower at all.. don't - just hire Gloriel. Same thing, Karla is just a super amazon blitzer - she's very very good for her cost, assuming you would ever take a +S amazon blitzer in the first place.

Zolcath and Grashnak fall in the same boat - I'm fine if you don't like +MA +MA mummies, or if you don't like +S minotaurs. But if you DO think those are ever useful, these stars are really really good for their price.


If you disagree and think that no one should ever take +S in the first place, that's a different story, but that's not the stars then, that's an entire core mechanic, which i felt was outside the scope of this discussion.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 20:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Borak is a special case. for anyone who has played against a deathroller, well, if they get even moderately good fouling rolls, they can single handedly win the game. However, they are definitely a 'high risk high reward' player. Borak is the same, except that he doesn't have secret weapon. He can easily singlehandedly win games with Dirty Player (+2), but it's definitely a huge gamble. But it's 'just' 'auto win the game' vs 'lose a very expensive player' (as opposed to auto lose the game), so the reward is in theory worth the risk.
Java



Joined: Jan 27, 2018

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 20:33 Reply with quote Back to top

I totally agree on Gloriel, it's just she's not seen at all in my experience, but yeah definitely elf teams should consider that option, particularly in resurrection formats that don't penalise stars beyond the famous five.

the reason, imho, the ones I mentioned aren't seen, is that most of them add little to the base they "come from". Grashnak for example can be as big as he wants but he'll still be rolling 1/27s and has a negatrait like all other minotaurs, one of the few stars that got worse in the change of edition :/

Karla used to be a really nice blodger that half the teams could only hit uphill
now she's an AG busted griff, with subpar skill selection (which is a common occurrence in this subset I'm pointing at)

the bottom line is that some of this players, despite being really really good on paper, do not fit at all, or aren't needed, within the teams that can take them

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 03, 2022 - 21:00 Reply with quote Back to top

sure, but both grashnak and karla got cheaper compared to 2016. and yes, there are better options for most teams than either of them - but those better options are also on the list. If you already have griff, and you can get karla too? you already have morg, and you can get grashnak? hell yes, do that.

i guess, the other way to consider this: those stars are the ones that might be worth their cost compared to a wizard. there are still ranks between the stars in that category, but they are all good.
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