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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2022 - 12:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Doh! You caught me napping.

I didn't think that this would kick off until Rings of Power landed.

You're a whole week early! Twisted Evil

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2022 - 12:22 Reply with quote Back to top

@Gwenos: a Keeper of Secrets (as Slaanesh themself and other Slaaneshi Daemons/worshippers) has not a definite gender according to WH fluff, so it's better to have a non-binary gender for characterization (some people love fluff and its futile details).
If you don't like non-binary gender just don't select it.
That said, no matter if we agree or not with you, but it's nice that you expressed your opinion.
I don't judge you negatively for that, for what is worth. Also, I don't think that the comparison with that other ideology is right, but I understand the hyperbole as well.
The_Great_Gobbo



Joined: Aug 04, 2014

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2022 - 12:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Yew is 147 days late mush
Chrisdekok



Joined: Aug 09, 2021

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2022 - 12:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Is this kind of political discussions really a good idea on a forum like this.
I used to follow a cigar forum that destroyed itself from political discussions.
I have only been a member here a short time so I don't know the history and tolerance level of this kind of discussions here.
Maybe admins should lock this thread.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2022 - 12:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Kondor wrote:

Neutral has always been there for skeletons.

Technically, if you have enough bones (or you can extract the DNA), you can know for sure the gender of a skeleton. Razz
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2022 - 12:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Yea, you can tell loads of stuff from a skeleton
Long bow archers were identifiable because some of their shoulder bones fused together on one side

Slaanesh is a great example of non-binary, and have been in the GW canon for decades
neilwat



Joined: Aug 01, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2022 - 13:16
FUMBBL Staff
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I am just going to lock this for a while, then we will discuss as an admin team on if we open this up again or shut it down.
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 26, 2022 - 16:44
FUMBBL Staff
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I have gone through and edited some parts of this thread to remove an overly offensively intended phrase. I partly wanted to just delete the thread entirely but chose to spend the time to edit and respond instead.

You're saying including non-binary and neutral pronouns in a fantasy game is equivalent to the atrocities of the Nazi ideology? First off, I am glad you are living in such a protected life to not have had to actually experienced this yourself. It's also somewhat humorous in a sad way that what you are suggesting is more in line with Nazi ideology than actually being inclusive. Beyond this point, I'll assume the nazi reference is a sign of ignorance rather than actually believing they're equivalent. If that's not the case and you're actually accusing me of being sympathetic towards the nazi ideology, I will simply ask you to go spend your free time somewhere that isn't FUMBBL.

FUMBBL has had the option to set gender of your players for its entire existence (coming up on 20 years). Initially, the choices were male, female and neutral, and this setting affected the pronouns that show up in the log panel of a given game. You've always been able to set and change this gender freely (and not strictly limited to during player hiring). The neutral option was there to cover things like skeletons (and yes, I know skeletons have technical genders too).

During the work of implementing the 2020 ruleset, I came by that part of the code in the FFB client and decided it's not a big deal to add support for non-binary, because honestly it should have been there a long time ago. Is this some woke ideology? Some people obviously believe it is, and I'm almost certain that in some cases being more inclusive is more a way to stay out of the line of fire and protect shareholder value than an actual belief that equality and inclusiveness is important on its own. For me, and in extension for FUMBBL, having support for non-binary genders is a way to allow the people who enjoy the (arguably minimal) roleplay aspects of the game we play and be able to represent themselves, friends, family, or just simply be able to tell a story. It's about normalizing the fact that there are people in this world who are not comfortable with a "traditional" binary gender and in a very small way move our world towards a more accepting and inclusive one.

To answer your direct questions:

Could the option be removed? Technically it could, but I won't.

Can we get rid of the woke ideology? Yes, but my approach here is to help normalize the visibility of non-binary genders and thus remove the belief that it's woke ideology and instead just be a normal part of people's vocabulary and mindsets.

Quite likely not the response you wanted, but there you go. Most of this isn't directed to the OP, but as a general response about my opinion on this, and to give people an idea of my values and ideology.

I'm leaving the thread locked, but if someone wants to talk about this in more detail, please do feel free to reach out to me on the Discord server (or through private messages on the site if Discord doesn't work for you).
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