uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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Oct 19, 2022 - 10:54 |
 
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| PurpleChest wrote: | its intersting that, at time of posting, 3/1/0 is winning, when the perceived problem is that 5/2/1/0 rewards wins too much and penalises draws.
5/2/1/0 gives 2.5 draw points for a win, and 3/1/0 of course gives 3x, so unlikely to solve the problem. |
Agree with this, but to my mind the biggest issue with 5/2/1 is the value of a loss compared to a tie, rather than the value of a win versus a tie. 3/1/0 handles that better while still incentivizing wins.
Having said that I voted 2/1/0 after reading the arguments in this thread. |
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mekutata
Joined: May 03, 2015
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Oct 19, 2022 - 10:56 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | 2/1/0 is the most sensible scoring system for Blood Bowl. A draw should be half of a win. This isn’t a televised sport where we’re trying to create excitement to drive up viewership, it’s a board game. ‘Pushing to win’ is often a synonym for ‘playing sub-optimally’. |
If you want to have a league where your participants watch games, it makes sense to make it "exciting".
Doesn't really matter if televised or not. Personally I enjoy the /boos and /stomps of dumb rivals.
But probably more important, is it less exciting for you as a coach if you are "pushed" to play beyond what you established to be optimal play?
Regarding sub-optimal play in general: If a draw is less desirable outcome, that context might just redefine how to define "optimal".
I am not even sure what optimal play means for you in general. But I know I am bored playing or watching games where coaches stall for a safe draw.
Slightly related; if overtime in BB would actually be fun, you could just remove draws and force teams to play until there is a winner. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Oct 19, 2022 - 11:20 |
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| uzkulak wrote: | | PurpleChest wrote: | its intersting that, at time of posting, 3/1/0 is winning, when the perceived problem is that 5/2/1/0 rewards wins too much and penalises draws.
5/2/1/0 gives 2.5 draw points for a win, and 3/1/0 of course gives 3x, so unlikely to solve the problem. |
Agree with this, but to my mind the biggest issue with 5/2/1 is the value of a loss compared to a tie, rather than the value of a win versus a tie. 3/1/0 handles that better while still incentivizing wins.
Having said that I voted 2/1/0 after reading the arguments in this thread. |
But then, 5/2/0 would be better.
More NFL style would be 100/1/0. 
We don't have ties after overtime though. |
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Gridironman
Joined: Mar 18, 2022
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Oct 19, 2022 - 12:57 |
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I live in North America. I can join if your league is not full by your preferred start date, I can fill a spot. However, if people within the preferred time zones want to join at a later date--they may have preferential treatment over me before the season starts. I will play the role of a super reserve that may be superseded by players within your region of play. Even though I may have asked prior to them, they deserve my spot. I am just here if there are not enough teams. If I do play in a season--I expect to play for only one season because by that time, an interested reserve in the correct region will likely build up. I look forward to playing people I otherwise would not compete against if the chance arises. |
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An Amorican Nuffler that bashed in his youth. |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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Oct 19, 2022 - 13:10 |
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The main thing you're trying to break with points in a 7-game season is
4/1/2 vs 3/4/0
Most scoring systems give it to the undefeated team, because three ties beats one win. Current WIL gives in to the one extra win. 3-1-0 says those are equal, and need another tiebreaker, which probably goes to the undefeated team for most schemes there.
Should 3/4/0 beat 4/1/2? Answer that, yes (5-2-0), no (4-1-0), or maybe (3-1-0), and you'll have your points system. |
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uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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Oct 19, 2022 - 13:38 |
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| tussock wrote: | The main thing you're trying to break with points in a 7-game season is
4/1/2 vs 3/4/0
Most scoring systems give it to the undefeated team, because three ties beats one win. Current WIL gives in to the one extra win. 3-1-0 says those are equal, and need another tiebreaker, which probably goes to the undefeated team for most schemes there.
Should 3/4/0 beat 4/1/2? Answer that, yes (5-2-0), no (4-1-0), or maybe (3-1-0), and you'll have your points system. |
Yeah, its points for the losses that seems to be the problem most of the time. Although I do see the purpose in terms of getting people to play matches - all the scoring systems suggested seem fairer without points for a loss. |
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geggster
Joined: Mar 03, 2014
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Oct 19, 2022 - 16:20 |
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I don't agree it is points for losses that is the problem
There are two issues we face here:
1) making sure that people don't tactically avoid games or at least incentivised to the play them
2) but most importantly a sensible scoring system for the 98% of games that do get played
Broadly speaking answers are:
1) attach a negative point for forfeit (or perhaps a solitary point for playing the game at all)
2) then a system that is broadly 2x draw for a win - perhaps marginally more than 2x draw for a win, so that wins become first tiebreaker
So that's 2/1/0/-1 or 3/2/1/0 or perhaps 10/5/1/0. 2/1/0 for me.
Anyway, the leading results are a far cry from a win being worth x4 draws (assuming you play all the games in the current 5/2/1/0 format) so all good. |
Last edited by geggster on %b %19, %2022 - %16:%Oct; edited 1 time in total |
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Garion26
Joined: Nov 28, 2021
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Oct 19, 2022 - 16:21 |
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| uzkulak wrote: |
Yeah, its points for the losses that seems to be the problem most of the time. Although I do see the purpose in terms of getting people to play matches - all the scoring systems suggested seem fairer without points for a loss. |
To fix that use larger increments of points
so instead of (5-2-0) use (50-20-2) for example. Losses are worth some small increment of points such that losing a game is better then not playing it, but not so much that the points for the loss start causing oddities in final statistics. |
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PeteW
Joined: Aug 05, 2005
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Oct 19, 2022 - 16:49 |
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Good job the vote is only an indication and the commissioner gets the final say!
Perhaps 20/10/1/0 is the solution then, which essentially makes a win = 2x draw, but with a tiny tweak to break ties.
Oh, and I have applied to the group. |
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awambawamb
Joined: Feb 17, 2008
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Oct 19, 2022 - 19:12 |
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...and so the White Isle League came to be the pointiest league of all FUMBBL, where the scores are to be measured with 4 digits.
I'm in.
to make it less convenient to draw, 13/6/1/0
we might be the first to do that so we could use prime numbers: 17/7/3/1
shenanigans aside, I agree that a win should be a tad more than 2x of a draw, but not 2.5x. |
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Wotfudboy
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
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Oct 19, 2022 - 20:17 |
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I'm not really too fussed either way... but 5 points for a win seems to over reward wins... but 2/1/0 means some are happy with the draw instead of pushing for a win. I like 3/1/0.
Forfeits should be 0, unless the admin can clearly see the coach has made no effort to arrange or play the match... in which case, -1 should be applied. |
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WIL. |
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MrCushtie
Joined: Aug 10, 2018
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Oct 19, 2022 - 22:49 |
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I'd prefer 5 for a win, 2 for a draw, 1 for a loss by less than 2 TDs, 0 for an abject loss, -1 for a forfeit. But maybe I'm just doing that to persuade people to avoid the 2-1 stall in favour of some blowout matches |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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Oct 20, 2022 - 01:18 |
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Irgy
Joined: Feb 21, 2007
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Oct 20, 2022 - 04:44 |
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5-2-0 in SWL works well in my opinion, if you want a point for playing then you should do 6/3/1. Which is identical to 5/2/0/-1. |
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Sableheart
Joined: Jul 14, 2014
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Oct 20, 2022 - 18:09 |
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Voted to keep it the same, mainly because the OP didn't give any arguments for changing, so I'm not sure what problems we are actually trying to solve here. |
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Gnomes are trash
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