koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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 Posted:
Nov 22, 2022 - 14:42 |
 
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| Chrisdekok wrote: | | After encountering Keyser Söze not retiring the team is unthinkable. |
Why?
I don't think that I have ever retired a team purely due to injuries.
| Chrisdekok wrote: |
I'm usually rather silent during the game except the common courtesy phrases. I know some coaches don't like that but conceding because of it seem rather thin skinned even to my standards. |
I don't think that many would concede just because you are silent, but silence can be another straw on the camel's back.
I had pretty much given up on the "competitive" divisions even before the 2020 rules.
I'd rather play someone I've already had a chat with than some random dude who may be great fun, may be silent or may be a total arse'ole. |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Nov 22, 2022 - 15:29 |
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| Chrisdekok wrote: | | Interesting that giving up in game is acceptable but to concede is not. |
There are also wrong ways to give up in-game, or rather there are limits to it. Usually, most coaches are pretty sanguine about it if you decide to stay down and give up on a drive, especially in the first half when you'll get a chance to come back and even it up, or even win. After all, all or most of your players are prone and you don't have any actions that are likely to succeed, and it's just one TD no matter how badly you got clobbered.
But then the touchdown happens and you're expected to play hard again, at least until you get turned back into a pretzel. If you give up on the game and just stop moving players drive after drive, that's as destructive as conceding. Maybe your opponent earned the W, but did they earn all those free scores you spotted them? |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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Nov 22, 2022 - 16:17 |
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What you describe isn't really giving up but trying to get a tactical advantage by lying down and then bounce back after the TD. I'm talking about actually giving up, not moving players at all or move them to a disadvantageous place like on the sidelines.
Sometimes polite opponent coaches have asked me if it's okay that they concede, and I have always said yes. Are these concessions also destructive for the community even if no coach got hurt? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 22, 2022 - 16:41 |
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| Chrisdekok wrote: | | What you describe isn't really giving up but trying to get a tactical advantage by lying down and then bounce back after the TD. I'm talking about actually giving up, not moving players at all or move them to a disadvantageous place like on the sidelines. |
Sure, you can do that.
Then the opponent can choose to block & foul your players to death (or not) as they see fit. 
Personally, I probably wouldn't start a game in the first place if I was the kind of mood where I might "give up" on a game.
I may give up on getting the win or the tie. But I'd still play to the end, trying to keep my players alive and/or trying to get a consolation cas. 
IMO the issue comes if the environment is so tough that you are running into "too many" killer teams.
Getting destroyed by just one team? That's Nuffle, baby.
| Chrisdekok wrote: | | Sometimes polite opponent coaches have asked me if it's okay that they concede, and I have always said yes. Are these concessions also destructive for the community even if no coach got hurt? |
I think that it should be fairly obvious if they can concede or not. They may ask your opinion on whether the concession is valid, but they shouldn't need to ask for your permission.
It sounds as though you are encouraging people to break site rules.  |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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Nov 22, 2022 - 17:00 |
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I had a feeling it would come to this
So you are saying two coaches should go through the pain of completing a match where one of them want to concede to end the suffering and the other one hopes the first will concede to save time and get some benefits like extra gold.
Because this is the site rules and otherwise some other coaches who are not involved at all will be upset.
I don't like the idea of being bullied by other coaches how I should play the game within the official rules. If I want to foul I will foul, if I want to focus on kills before TDs I will do that, if I take pity on the losing coach and want to leave his remaining player be I will do that.
If concessions are only allowed after admin approves the possibility to concede by player choice should be removed. Now you are saying its not allowed but it still happens all the time. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Nov 22, 2022 - 17:13 |
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Concessions are allowed, and for a reason. It's just very unusual to find the right situation. If I'm up 2-0 at the half, receiving, and you're down to 5 players including some really good 2-skill guys, fine. Go ahead and concede. If real-life baloney forces you to reschedule, but the game is totally out of hand, conceding is the best thing to do. There are times. "Two of my players are out and I've used my Apothecary," that's less fine. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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Nov 22, 2022 - 17:26 |
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So it's okay to concede if the situation is really bad but not if it's moderately bad.
There might be a problem that different coaches have different opinions on where the line between the two conditions go exactly.
It seems to boil down to the typical FUMBBL situation where something is ok if I do it but bad if others do it like Bomber, bash, wizard, scumm etc. |
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HimalayaP1C7
Joined: Feb 03, 2021
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Nov 22, 2022 - 17:43 |
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Keeping concedes to a minimum is beneficial overall, exactly specifying the rules for that is really tricky. I guess the admins will step in if it becomes a problem (hopefully pretty rare).
I don't even think this is a big issue. You mentioned 6 recent concedes, that's very unusual, I looked at a few coaches recent matches and most had 0 concedes on page 1 of their recent matches. |
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Stonetroll
Joined: Jun 30, 2005
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Nov 22, 2022 - 18:03 |
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I personally think a firm stance on concessions is one of the upsides of Fummbl. Compared for example to what it was like in Cyanides blood bowl client matchmaking where people quit games at the drop of a hat. It is a culture that has developed on the site over the years, and at least in my opinion it is exactly within the spirit of the rules of the game.
Just in case my post comes off as too serious, here is a funny concession story I had once: A player conceded against me because I didn't stall my first half drive with nurgle, but scored quickly instead. They muttered something about "not respecting them by stalling" and promptly conceded the game  |
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Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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Nov 22, 2022 - 18:13 |
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I might have some understanding of the perspective that too many concessions on loose grounds is bad.
It could be solved by bigger penalties for the conceding and larger rewards for the winner. Penalties might carry over to other teams as you otherwise get no effect when the conceding team is a rookie one that can just be recreated.
I don't like the diffuse rules that exists know where it's up to the player to decide and some "neutral unbiased" wise men have the answer when a concession is ok or not.
On my fist page of recent matches I have 6 concessions from opponents an 1 from me. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Nov 22, 2022 - 18:27 |
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| Chrisdekok wrote: | | It could be solved by bigger penalties for the conceding and larger rewards for the winner. Penalties might carry over to other teams as you otherwise get no effect when the conceding team is a rookie one that can just be recreated. |
You mean like in LRB6 and 2016, and for that matter 3rd edition and all the LRBs? Yeah, they did that for a very long time. Unfortunately, a) it didn't have a huge deterrent effect, and b) it was very demoralizing for new and bad coaches. It's a thorny issue. |
_________________
Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 22, 2022 - 18:59 |
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| Chrisdekok wrote: |
I don't like the diffuse rules that exists know where it's up to the player to decide and some "neutral unbiased" wise men have the answer when a concession is ok or not.
On my fist page of recent matches I have 6 concessions from opponents an 1 from me. |
Is it just one team killing people's fun or are there loads like that?
If it is loads, then that will eventually kill or at least transform the division.
I don't recall conceding even once in 17 years. I'm not asking "why are people not allowed to concede?" I'm asking "why do people want to concede?"
What is making the game so miserable? How do we fix it?
Is this a non issue? Is it just a case of you having a nasty team? |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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Nov 22, 2022 - 19:13 |
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low TV Ogres may be nasty. |
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Chrisdekok
Joined: Aug 09, 2021
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Nov 22, 2022 - 19:24 |
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Just spectated a game which ended with a concession after a very polite exchange between coaches. 2 of 4 Ogres were niggled.
Was that destructive and dangerous or just civilized and reasonable? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Nov 22, 2022 - 19:47 |
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| Chrisdekok wrote: | Just spectated a game which ended with a concession after a very polite exchange between coaches. 2 of 4 Ogres were niggled.
Was that destructive and dangerous or just civilized and reasonable? |
I guess I'm just an old guy pining for the "good old days".
It was a one game team and he retired it afterwards.
Why not play on?
The admins may consider this a legal concession. But if you are going to retire the team anyway you don't need to concede to "save" it.
Clearly, times have changed and the spirit of the game is not what it was in days past.
I'm pretty sure that there are still coaches who would have played on to the last gnoblar.
They'd have made -3D blocks just for the hope of getting a guy down to foul him.
Make it a game for the songs.
I expect that that is the spirit that the rules were written for.
But I guess that there are not many songs anymore. Just numbers. |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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