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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 13:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Considering that most of my games are vs Wizard and/or Bomber, I think it could be useful, in order to make the games fairer and closer in TV, taking into account the Treasury for purpose of Box pairing.

For example:

A TV 1300 team has 200k in the Treasury. The Box scheduler could consider it like a "virtual" TV 1500 team for purpose of pairing. That would make the match-ups more balanced, because now spending gold to buy Inducements doesn't require to bridge the TV gap and thus they are way more common (especially Wizard and Bomber). With old Inducement system, if somebody overdogged he would have given the difference to opponent, now you can overdog and the opponent just gets mostly useless Prayers to Nuffle. So, using just the TV, in my opinion, is not balanced enough, now that Inducements and overdogging are way more common, unlike in the old ruleset. Moreover, lack of Season Re-Draft allows some teams to keep Legend players for longer than they are supposed to. This means that players, especially on high AV teams, don't need to be re-purchased and so the high AV teams tend to have many developed players and huge Treasury to overdog every game or so. I know that now Inducements are supposed to be common, but the rules feature Season Re-Draft as well.

So, if there are 4 teams activating:

A) TV 1300 with 200k in the Treasury;
B) TV 1350 with 150k in the Treasury;
C) TV 1350 with 50 in the Treasury;
D) TV 1300 with 100 in the Treasury;

team A should be matched with team B, while team C should be matched with team D.

Whenever possible, teams should be paired by close TV and Treasury as well. If 2 teams have same TV, then Treasury should be taken into account as well.
Closest TV and closest Treasury, not just closest TV.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 14:32 Reply with quote Back to top

why? this ruleset specifically encourages treasury spending, and expects it almost every game.

i believe that's intended, not a problem, and the way the scheduler is built correctly reflects that game design.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 14:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Assuming close TVs, if one of the teams can spend 200 or 300k and the other team can't there is a huge unbalance.
I play every game vs Wizard with my Elves, after a while it's annoying. It's close to playing slot machine, the opponent skill is not important due to Wizard. With slot machine you don't waste 1 hour, at least.
Since you like the BB2020 Inducement system, feel free to make an Elf team and I will play vs you with my Orcs inducing a Wizard and Bomber.
Then come back and tell me how is supposed to be ok.
I know you play only Orcs and Inducements benefit them, but you should consider other races as well.
Also, the game design features Season Re-Draft, so, if we want to stick to game design we need a Season Re-Draft.
We currently are using the "spend freely gold to buy Inducements because you opponent just gets silly Prayers in return" part of the ruleset without the Season Re-Draft part.
Just for this reason is not how game is designed, if we want to nitpick.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 14:54 Reply with quote Back to top

sure, and i specifically do the same in NBFL where i play elves at high tv, and the orc player argues the same thing as you. i'm against the change there as well.

however, your last point is the more important one - making season re-draft actually happen is more important. and asking for any other changes, would necessarily delay season re-draft. so instead of asking for this change, and making season re-draft even later, let's focus on how awesome what we have is, and wait for season re-draft?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 15:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that both changes would be necessary, to be honest, because Season Re-Draft every 15 games improves the things a bit, but still allows to keep developed players.
There is a huge difference between fireballing a ball carrier and then retrieving the ball with a freak or having to retrieve it with a less developed player, or having a clawmb killer hitting your players every turn and then, as icing on the cake, a fireball when your team is very outnumbered.
Considering the Treasury as part of TV could be easier than implementing the Re-Draft. I don't know though, I'm clueless about technical aspects. I'm not demanding anything, just suggesting an idea.

Mind, I don't lose every game I play vs Wizards, but it's still very annoying to play vs them.
If I win, I probably got lucky, if I lose, probably I got unlucky.
It shifts the game towards a coin toss sometimes. I know BB is a dice game, but a fireball is a kind of dice with the potential to be gamechanging, even if the opponent doesn't actually use the Wizard.
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 15:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Unfair.

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
Endrophil



Joined: Nov 16, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 18:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Maybe I should stop paying people for buying wizard against you. Very Happy
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 18:47 Reply with quote Back to top

This is the point where we all agree to scum on Matt. Very Happy

No, seriously, as long as the CR delta is taking scum into account, this is annoying maybe, but ultimately just another challenge and another vector for gaming. Plus another badge of honor.

But yes, there is a certain highly reliable Bombardier who needs to cost more than 50k. That's a matter for GW, though, not FUMBBL.

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 18:57 Reply with quote Back to top

About FUMBBL and Bomber: while FUMBBL can't change Bomber's price, a soft workaround to discourage hiring him could be considering him higher price for purpose of CR gain/loss.
So, he could be considered like a 130k Inducement for the CR formula, without changing his 50k price, because we know that FUMBBL must stick to official GW rules as much as possible.
At least the challenge would be adequately rewarded by CR gain that way.

And no, facing a Wizard 90% of games is not that fun.
1 game on 10 can be fun. Every game or so it's boring.
I could monoactivate Orcs and destroy Box teams, but I wanted to play Elves for some variety and challenge.
No need to have another extra penalty by facing Wizards just because Season Re-Draft has not been implemented yet.
If I get pissed off I go back to monoactivate bash teams, no problem. I tried to be constructive and suggest an idea to improve the Box scheduler.
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 23, 2022 - 19:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Definitely we need seasons. Glad to have what we got, but that particular upgrade can't come soon enough. Even when we get seasons, it'll take awhile before we purge all the ancient players created over the last year and a half.

Also, BB202X or Third Season or whatever should buff the Prayers to Nuffle.

_________________
Focus not on things you can't control, like bad dice, but instead on things under your power, like how far you flip the table.
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2022 - 09:58 Reply with quote Back to top

"I tried to be constructive and suggest an idea to improve the Box scheduler for me.

Fixed that for you, Matt. You keep on playing the game inside that tiny box of parameters you are capable of, and you keep on suggesting how FUMBBL could make that box kinder on your CR, or your pairings, or whatever. We're listening. We love it. Also.. link that sweet set of house rules in your bio. I read those weekly. Others should. You've been told Seasons are coming, but FUMBBL should stop work on Seasons for just a short bit to make that box algorithm change, ASAP. I'm sure it's a trivial bit of programming. If you're stuck in a jail cell, and have only Black Box to entertain yourself, in your own way, of course, it's the least FUMBBL could do.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2022 - 11:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I know that eventually Season Re-Draft will come, but I'm afraid it will not be enough, hence the Treasury as part of TV as suggestion.
In 15 games building a freak is still possible, especially by picking on GF.
Oh well, no wonder that a constructive debate can't be made on a forum full of trolls.
I have been stupid once again trying to suggest something to improve the Box.

I suggested a thing that could be useful for me (a guy who is very active in the Box, so he has actual experience about it, he's not a GF picker) and for everybody who plays in the Box and doesn't want to play vs Wizard and Bomber almost every game because they remove lot of coach's skill.


Last edited by MattDakka on Nov 24, 2022 - 11:26; edited 1 time in total
MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 24, 2022 - 11:25 Reply with quote Back to top

You could try to play on leagues or tournaments where everyone gets fixed ammount of skills/gold so its more "fair" ?

Or is this again just another ramble where opponent did something bad against you and has to be adressed by ruining every other players fun ?

_________________
Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2022 - 21:06 Reply with quote Back to top

I disagree with the OP, but I do kind of like this part

"considering [Bomber] higher price for purpose of CR gain/loss."

Does CR gain/loss currently take into account the relative TV of the teams?
I think it might ignore that...

But, if it does take into account TV, then it should be TV+treasury spent. If it's not already.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2022 - 22:46 Reply with quote Back to top

As far as I know, the TV difference affects the CR gained and lost.
Bomber could be considered by the formula like a "virtual" +100 or +130 TV, instead of 50 TV (just for purpose of CR won/lost calculation).
The general opinion is that he's too cheap for the potential he has, so considering him like a +100 TV Inducement (still keeping his hiring fee 50k) would at least reward more winning against him.
It's a compromise between sticking to official rules and rewarding more winning against him/discouraging a bit hiring him.
I don't lose every game vs Bomber (after lots of games I got better at dealing with him) and to some degree I even find him a fun challenge but, on the other hand, facing him makes games very dice-based and even more unbalanced in certain match-ups.
For example, Amazons vs Chaos Dwarfs or DE vs Chaos Dwarfs are bad match-ups even without Bomber barraging all around.
You can position perfectly your players, then a bomb (sometimes even inaccurate or re-rolled despite Loner) hits your ball carrier or busts the screen and game is over due to that.
This is supposed to be a tactical game where positioning is important, not an artillery game.
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