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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2023 - 11:36 Reply with quote Back to top

On Dwarf Blitzers and Blockers take Guard then MB (chosen skills).
I tried random S skill approach on Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs but it didn't work. So, the boring and reliable Guard, MB build is the best.
Generally speaking, on expensive players taking random skills is not a good idea, while on cheap players (Zombies, Hobgoblins), easy to re-buy, can be a valid build strategy.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jan 22, 2023 - 11:43; edited 1 time in total
Macomina



Joined: Dec 15, 2022

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2023 - 11:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Yeah, you right, forgot about the random skills...
but still my point is vqlid on the + stats and doubles part
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2023 - 11:40 Reply with quote Back to top

If you manage to get +MA/+AG/Blodge on the Dwarf Runner he will be very good. On the other Dwarfs +stats and double are not that necessary.
Pimp the Runner, go boring Guard and MB on the rest.
Macomina



Joined: Dec 15, 2022

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2023 - 12:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the tips !
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2023 - 12:59 Reply with quote Back to top

You're welcome!
I've forgot one thing: +ST is not that good for the 80 TV cost, so, try to have a Dwarf Runner with Block, Dodge, MA 8, AG 4, Side Step.
If you don't manage to get +AG you can take Break Tackle.
Also, I suggest to take first +MA on the Dwarf Runner, even before Block.
+MA makes really the difference.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2023 - 18:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I don’t find the new skill selection very compelling at all.

Random skills are just a way to min max a team, quite possibly the most cancerous part of perpetual leagues. Making secondary skills cost 40 TV is a big deal, and the ability to cycle positionals aiming at a 20 TV delta is too tempting. Cycling the lino that gets MVP (due to the stupid change to fully random MVP) is almost mandatory as well. Why wait for 6 app when you can possibly get block/wrestle/kick/DP at a 10 TV discount? The new money system makes cycling even easier.

The random skills are actually fun in a true league environment, but now we have the issue of never seeing cool skill combos. One of the best parts of blood bowl was seeing stat freaks and multi double players that were unique and flavorful. They became the stars of your team. Now the skills are either obvious combos or random primaries. No stat increases. Can you imagine saving up to 18 app on a positional in a league environment? Silly.

It is also hard to examine the new selection process in a vacuum without acknowledging that nearly half of the skill tables are worthless. I know GW would say this is a feature due to random skills, and not a bug, but I don’t like this feature at all. I don’t see any way that skills like pile driver or nerfs to things like shadowing benefit the game.

Pretty much the only thing I actually enjoy about the new setup is big guys getting block automatically at 12 spp. But even then, it really limits your ability to role play as a block big guy was extra special in LRB, but commonplace in BB2020.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2023 - 18:51 Reply with quote Back to top

not entirely true. i still see a lot of +MA +MA +AG ball carriers in true league environments. you just don't bother splitting tds between players anymore - you pour it all into one player so you can have a legend ball carrier in the second season (or third if they're really short seasons, ie, under 8 games)

but yeah, i dislike how the system works.

i think random primaries are a good thing. i think stats shouldn't be so easy to get, but also shouldn't take so long (as the combination isn't something that improves gameplay, it just means you get stat freak ball carriers everywhere).

i'm tentatively interested in keeping the spp cost for random primary, random secondary, and chosen primary the same. but then make only one more category, around +4 or +6 spp over chosen primary cost, and you roll on the old 2d6 table (doubles are chosen secondary, high rolls are stats, anything else is a chosen primary)

but i'd also drop all the skill categories to 10 skills; you still roll 2 dice to determine random skills: roll 1-3 on the first die, your random skill will be in the first 5 skills, roll 4-6 on the first die, your random skill will be in the last 5 skills. roll a 6 on the second die, and you get your choice of skills within the 5 determined by the first die.

i'm not completely sure what i want to do for mvp. i think for some teams being able to choose is near mandatory; and for some teams, being able to stack all the mvps on certain players is too good. I'd probably want to make it a choice, but between 6 players instead of 3. (I actually want to make certain players get nominated by the system, but that's probably out of the realm of possibility)
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2023 - 19:10 Reply with quote Back to top

About +stat: I'd like a cap of max +1 per each characteristic (max MA 9). That would make MA 8 ball carriers less common. Also, I'd like +MA cost increased to 30 TV.

About random skills: some should be improved a bit (Pile Driver and Shadowing are useless in most situations); also, I'd like to be able to refuse a random skill if I don't like it. SPPs would still be spent but at least the skill slot would not be used for a bad skill.

About MVP: my own idea for MVP is making it more realistic. That means assigning randomly the MVP to a player who actually earned some SPPs in the match.
So, if, for example, 4 players earned some SPPs, roll a D4 (if more, numbered tokens could be used) and 1 of them gets the MVP (which, as an aside, is worth D6 SPPs, not a fixed value like now).
The other players on the team (apart from the Legend ones) earn 1 SPP each.
That would help the teams such as Vampires, Lizardmen and Chaos, for example.


Last edited by MattDakka on Jan 22, 2023 - 19:16; edited 1 time in total
Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2023 - 19:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Mingoose wrote:
I don’t find the new skill selection very compelling at all.

Random skills are just a way to min max a team, quite possibly the most cancerous part of perpetual leagues. Making secondary skills cost 40 TV is a big deal, and the ability to cycle positionals aiming at a 20 TV delta is too tempting. Cycling the lino that gets MVP (due to the stupid change to fully random MVP) is almost mandatory as well. Why wait for 6 app when you can possibly get block/wrestle/kick/DP at a 10 TV discount? The new money system makes cycling even easier.

The random skills are actually fun in a true league environment, but now we have the issue of never seeing cool skill combos. One of the best parts of blood bowl was seeing stat freaks and multi double players that were unique and flavorful. They became the stars of your team. Now the skills are either obvious combos or random primaries. No stat increases. Can you imagine saving up to 18 app on a positional in a league environment? Silly.

It is also hard to examine the new selection process in a vacuum without acknowledging that nearly half of the skill tables are worthless. I know GW would say this is a feature due to random skills, and not a bug, but I don’t like this feature at all. I don’t see any way that skills like pile driver or nerfs to things like shadowing benefit the game.

Pretty much the only thing I actually enjoy about the new setup is big guys getting block automatically at 12 spp. But even then, it really limits your ability to role play as a block big guy was extra special in LRB, but commonplace in BB2020.

I think redraft will deal with some of the issues you don't like when it comes along. Though it also has problems of its own.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 22, 2023 - 19:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Fumbbl does allow you to use the old skill selection mechanism in your leagues. \o/

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2023 - 16:29 Reply with quote Back to top

While we're fixing things in our minds, +ST should be 60k.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2023 - 18:04 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
While we're fixing things in our minds, +ST should be 60k.


Is this the same argument running concurrently in two threads?

My old brain can't deal with such stuff. Wink

But, I'll shake on 60k and call it a deal. Mr. Green

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Garion26



Joined: Nov 28, 2021

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2023 - 18:53 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
About +stat: I'd like a cap of max +1 per each characteristic (max MA 9). That would make MA 8 ball carriers less common. Also, I'd like +MA cost increased to 30 TV.

About random skills: some should be improved a bit (Pile Driver and Shadowing are useless in most situations); also, I'd like to be able to refuse a random skill if I don't like it. SPPs would still be spent but at least the skill slot would not be used for a bad skill.

About MVP: my own idea for MVP is making it more realistic. That means assigning randomly the MVP to a player who actually earned some SPPs in the match.
So, if, for example, 4 players earned some SPPs, roll a D4 (if more, numbered tokens could be used) and 1 of them gets the MVP (which, as an aside, is worth D6 SPPs, not a fixed value like now).
The other players on the team (apart from the Legend ones) earn 1 SPP each.
That would help the teams such as Vampires, Lizardmen and Chaos, for example.


Matt while I agree with your previous post in this thread and your first paragraph. I disagree with the latter two points.

Random skills have a reduced cost in SPP/TV because you take the risk of rolling something useless. Having bad/very situational skills on each table is important make random skills a risk reward question.

While I appreciate your point on MVP you have to recognize it really favors ball handlers between passing and scoring TDs. Yes sometimes your strength 4 AG 5+ blocker is going to get a casualty but at low TV that's going to be relatively rare (1-2 casualties per game usually.) It would just create more likelihood of stat freak ball handlers.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2023 - 19:11 Reply with quote Back to top

The risk of random skills should be wasting the SPPs if you don't like them. What's the point of a useless skill? You say, it's a risk. Ok, but then let's just say that your player has wasted the SPPs, because a skill is supposed to be used. Both Pile Driver and Shadowing are so situational/weak that they are not going to affect the game. Then the useless skill is just a different way to write: "you wasted SPPs and a skill slot".
Also, there is no real risk/reward: if you can replace the player, because cheap, you risk basically the few gold pieces to re-buy him. If you have an expensive player you don't risk at all, making random skills rolled just on cheap players (and this helps bash and hybrid teams, which are already better than Elves). If I could refuse a bad random skill, then I could risk to roll random skills on Elven Linemen.

Passing is hard for ball handlers, even if they are Elves (Wildly Inaccurate and PA).
Throwers are good at passing but they are not good candidates to be stat freaks, because Throwers are often not the fastest players on the team. Catchers (and Wardancers) are the best ball carrier freaks, but their PA is 5+ or 4+, so farming SPPs via passing is not so easy.
Scoring TDs doesn't happen as often as getting the CAS, unless you play in a private league with high scoring involved. Most commonly, BB games revolve around a boring stalling to make the equalizer TD harder for the opponent, so TDs are very few. Most games have just 2 or 3 TDs scored. Moreover, my system assigns 1 SPP to each player, so that helps Blocker players with low AG rarely scoring TDs and the SPPs are spread more evenly, this way.
Also, the stat would be capped at max +1 per each characteristic, so, while now you can have MA 8 Dwarf Runners and Orc Blitzers as ball carriers, with my system they would have max MA 7. The stat cap already limits the stat freaks.
Mingoose



Joined: Jul 28, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2023 - 20:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Nelphine wrote:
not entirely true. i still see a lot of +MA +MA +AG ball carriers in true league environments. you just don't bother splitting tds between players anymore - you pour it all into one player so you can have a legend ball carrier in the second season (or third if they're really short seasons, ie, under 8 games)


I have never played in a real league where people tanked a season to build up a star for the next season. That just seems crazy to me. That is at least 10 games hogging every TD so you can have 1 stat freak without block, that will 100% be fouled. To each their own I guess.


MattDakka wrote:
About +stat: I'd like a cap of max +1 per each characteristic (max MA 9). That would make MA 8 ball carriers less common. Also, I'd like +MA cost increased to 30 TV.

About random skills: some should be improved a bit (Pile Driver and Shadowing are useless in most situations); also, I'd like to be able to refuse a random skill if I don't like it. SPPs would still be spent but at least the skill slot would not be used for a bad skill.

About MVP: my own idea for MVP is making it more realistic. That means assigning randomly the MVP to a player who actually earned some SPPs in the match.
So, if, for example, 4 players earned some SPPs, roll a D4 (if more, numbered tokens could be used) and 1 of them gets the MVP (which, as an aside, is worth D6 SPPs, not a fixed value like now).
The other players on the team (apart from the Legend ones) earn 1 SPP each.
That would help the teams such as Vampires, Lizardmen and Chaos, for example.


What makes you want MA 8 to be less common, and what makes you think MA is undervalued at 20 TV? Does that make Sure Feet one of the better skills in the game? I think MA has always been undervalued by coaches, specifically on defense, but I am curious why you would call for a TV increase.

In my TT leagues MVP is always awarded by the opponent to the player he thinks was truly the MVP. That didn't always translate to SPP, the MVP could have sacked the ball carrier on the last play or something like that. On FUMBBL I like the automated random pick for any SPP generating piece that game, good idea.

I'm not sure about the automatic 1 SPP per game played. Imagine a dwarf team game 7, where every lino now has guard. Or zons where every lino has blodge. It would be wild for sure, but damn that is a lot to process. I can't help but think teams like Elves and Humans would wind up on the short end of that one, and tier 3 like Vampires would be even more unplayable.

Garion26 wrote:

Random skills have a reduced cost in SPP/TV because you take the risk of rolling something useless. Having bad/very situational skills on each table is important make random skills a risk reward question.


That is fine for a real league, but for a perpetual league like FUMBBL it is terrible because matches are made based on TV. A team could be matched based on an inflated TV from terrible rolls, vs a team with reduced TV from cycling players, and it would not be a true apples to apples matchmaking process. The redraft will help in some aspects, but min/maxing will still be a priority, just extended across multiple re-drafts. Season 1 will be about farming random skills and season 2 will be about abusing the matchmaker to dominate. That sounds unenjoyable to me on both legs of that equation.
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