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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 12:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi, I've been thinking recently about the differences between tournament play and [Competitive] division play. Or rather, progression play vs non-progression play

Partly this is due to enjoying the recent season of Super League (which is non-progression, 1150k for your team + a skills pack)
And partly because I've been to my first couple tabletop tournaments in the last year, enjoyed it, but found the playstyle is a bit different and it's not easy to put my finger on exactly how and why. Prior to this I only ever played in progression environments



Some of the principle differences are obvious:

1- Different inducements. Some stars, but hardly any kegs or wizards for example

2- You don't need to worry about casualities as much. If a player gets killed, it's just a badly hurt, they'll be back next game

3- You don't need 'manage' your team for skillups. There's no point handing over or trying to feed Saurus TDs or whatever. You don't need to do block sequences in order of which player you want CAS for the most. You don't need to shield players who've got lots of SPP.

4- Can use Apoth for tactical benefit rather than team management. Ie apoth a KO or BH rather than reserve it to save the good players

5- No journeymen. In fact a lot of the teams will have a bench, even elves / skaven
I treat journeymen worse than rostered players because they're disposable.. but without progression all players are disposable

6- Team builds are different. No Legends for example, less skill stacking, hardly any +stats, TV is generally 1150k etc

7- The only result that matters is the touchdowns. If you win 2-1 but get destroyed on CAS, it is still a great success


So, a lot of this is small differences of type of play, stuff that makes your team stronger in the long run but perhaps compromises the in-game chance of winning.. basically there's no pixel-hugging if there's no progression

A deeper bench and no permadeath means generally more inclination to take risks if you're not winning, and throw players around


This means a few things in practice:

A- Coaches are more inclined to risk their most skilled players, instead of trying to protect them all the time
(Really, players are just a resources used to win games, and should be treated as such. But.. everyone wants to build legends & has their favourites)

B- Coaches are more likely throw their (skilled) players in for desperation plays if it's necessary to try and salvage a score, regardless of the risk to their players. So, more -2dice blocks, more risky dodges into cages

C- Wrestle gains popularity over Block.
On fumbbl I'd rarely pick Wrestle over Block, because I want to protect my players from the risk of going to ground, and if they stay standing they keep tacklezones and provide assists. But without Progression (and being more likely to have a bench) that's not so much a problem.
Instead, Wrestle opens more options for sacking the ball.
Also, because you can pick skills, you can guarantee you'll have a dirty player / sneaky git on the roster, and maybe bribes too, so can build for fouls.

D- Strip Ball gains popularity
If there's more priorty put on the scoreline and less on player losses, then sending a sacker in with strip ball is a great option to have. It's quite rare to see it in [C], maybe just as the 3rd skill on a secondary gutter runner etc

E- Compact caging vs spaced screening
A compact cage allows your players to provide assists for each other, but the ball (B) can be attacked with a lucky 5+ or 6+ dodge.
In progression games, defender is less likely to try this, and more likely to try and hit a corner (X) and then leave contact on the ball
Code:
--------
|   X
|  B
| X X


In non-progression games, the defender is more likely to ignore the corners and risk striking directly at the ball. So a spaced out screen means they have to roll several dodges to make the sack, as well as controlling more territory
Code:
--------
|  B   X   
|
|  X   X   




For those who play a lot of tabletop tournaments a lot of this is probably obvious, but it's something I've only recently started thinking about.
Any other relevant points you can think of?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 12:56 Reply with quote Back to top

About 4): I play only progression games, but most of times I use the Apo on KO and BH as well, because the BB2020 CAS table makes less advantageous trying to heal SI and Dead players. I try to heal a player SI or Dead only if he's really important.

About A): " Coaches are more inclined to risk their most skilled players, instead of trying to protect them all the time
(Really, players are just a resources used to win games, and should be treated as such. But.. everyone wants to build legends & has their favourites)"

The fact is that losing a skilled player trying to win a one-off game you will probably lose could make you lose the next games. So, if you consider the bigger picture, it's not a matter of pixelhugging for the sake of building Legends, but a strategy to improve the overall long-term performance of the team.
This is not valid if you are playing a tournament/Major game, where you have the pressure of winning at all costs.

A thing I can think about low TV games (not necessarily non-progression tournaments) is that many trivial actions such as picking the ball up or throwing a block can fail more often due to lack of core skills..
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 13:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:

A- Coaches are more inclined to risk their most skilled players, instead of trying to protect them all the time
(Really, players are just a resources used to win games, and should be treated as such. But.. everyone wants to build legends & has their favourites)


Do they? I didn't think that Competitive was still a place for pixel huggers.

Though there were "proper" pixel huggers who wanted to get players to Legend or on the "Top" lists,
people also protected players for the "Big Ones".
I guess that people will still do that, even when seasons come in.
That is not "all the time" though.

Sp00keh wrote:

C- Wrestle gains popularity over Block.
On fumbbl I'd rarely pick Wrestle over Block, because I want to protect my players from the risk of going to ground, and if they stay standing they keep tacklezones and provide assists. But without Progression (and being more likely to have a bench) that's not so much a problem.
Instead, Wrestle opens more options for sacking the ball.
Also, because you can pick skills, you can guarantee you'll have a dirty player / sneaky git on the roster, and maybe bribes too, so can build for fouls.


I don't play non-prog but wrestle is still wrestle. I still don't really see why you'd need more of it.

Though, I suppose I wouldn't take it so early.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 13:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Wrestle helps teams lacking blocking skills and needing something to counter Blodgers as well by using just one skill slot, for example Chaos. Dwarfs, on the other hand, don't take often Wrestle, for obvious reasons.
With BB2020 I'm taking Wrestle less often because:

1) Blodgers are less common (because now you need to get Dodge as Secondary skill by spending SPPs) while with old rules you could take it by rolling a double (with less SPPs investment and TV cost); Ball carriers are still blodged-up, but in BB2020 it's less common to see many Blodgers on bash and hybrid teams (Amazons are the exception). Elves of course are still blodged-up but they are not very common, making Wrestle less necessary;

2) Block is better than Wrestle because it can generate SPPs through Casualties.
Without MVP nomination you need all the SPPs you can get, especially on positionals;

3) Khorne has 4 x Juggernaut Khorngors, who make Wrestle worse than Block when facing them;

4) Multi rr helps to knock down Blodgers. WIth old rules and 1 rr per turn Blodge was stronger.
Now even a slow bash team can chase a Blodger with GFIs/dodges and if needed a rr can be used to POW.
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 14:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Great Thoughts, and I think you nailed most of the key differences about the two types of game.

Anecdotally I can say, that after a very long break from progression games, I have personally found it pretty hard to play properly in progression play - getting my players killed left and right for no reason... Smile

I am happy you enjoy the Super League. Season two in going to be announced soon, and will have sign up deadline in about a months time. Smile
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 14:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Tripleskull wrote:

Anecdotally I can say, that after a very long break from progression games, I have personally found it pretty hard to play properly in progression play - getting my players killed left and right for no reason... Smile

About progression games: I think that the early games can be hard because of lack of skills, Dedicated Fans (Officious Ref is more luck-based when you have not many DF yet) and easier SI/Dead at low TV (due to CAS table changes), not enough rrs and/or no Apo.
After some games, with some core skills and Dedicated Fans, it gets easier.
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 15:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I was born and raised in progression, but then I moved to tournaments, and hardly played any progression games for something like 15 years. Now a days I play a little progression, and doo pretty well, but I do find that my style of play is a bit polluted by tournament style, and also I don't really enjoy the high TV games so much - I think (Or maybe I am just not playing them). After a few seasons in the league I do play in now, I am probably more tuned in. But I have given up my share of silly blocks in some games, costing me in the following games. If Only I loved my pixels a little more, and didn't only love winning. Smile

I am however looking forward to the league I do play in to be moving to BB3, when it is ready.
Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 17:11 Reply with quote Back to top

For me, I'm firmly on the progression side - for me, having to make that extra choice of player longevity vs in game impacts, is an important facet of the game.

That being said, I like to think I play how you have described for ressurrection, despite playing progression - I regularly get flak for putting my best players in harms way. To me, part of what truly makes a player a legend, is not the number of spp or skills, but how they play on pitch. Put them out there, get those touchdowns, win those games, come hell or high water. If you survive, THEN you are truly a legend.

Of course that doesn't mean I actively say 'hit me', but, I strive for the win every game, and won't artificially hide my players until that win is secured.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 18:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Yea. I think it comes down to: if you're in a losing situation and you see a 1% chance to go for the ball, do you send your best player at it?


In progression setting the answer is 'probably not', because you've got too large a chance of getting that player killed, and then you make your next games harder

In non-progression setting the answer is 'yes' because you lose nothing by trying
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 18:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Though in a KO tournament, it's lose and you go home. You may go for it all or you may regroup for the next one.

But with seasons, your team will be cut before the next one so you may as well go for it.

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Nelphine



Joined: Apr 01, 2011

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 18:32 Reply with quote Back to top

yeah for me, i go for the best reasonable shot at winning. If there is a 0.1% chance of my lino winning, and a 0.15% chance of my best player winning, I'll usually go with the lino. So I see what you mean, I am protecting my player in a place where you wouldn't bother in resurrection. Even in a KO tournament, I'm likely to do that, because the increased chance of winning with the best player simply isn't ENOUGH of an improvement over the lino, so why bother?

(But if it's a difference of say 10 to 15% chance, I hope I'd use the best player - +5% is simply too much of an improvement to pass up. Where the exact cut off is? I'm not sure.)
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 19:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Also, if you are playing the Box Trophy, on game 15 you could risk that Bloodspawn trying to cage-dive, while on game 1 or 6 you could refrain from it.
So, the context of the competition/match is important, as you said.
In one-off games, considering that now there is no MVP nomination anymore and that SI and Deaths are common (and Apo worse), it's better to think twice before risking a Legend player.
With old rules I was less averse to put my Legend players in risky situations.
With BB2020 I'm more cautious. Not because I'm a pixelhugger, but because re-building a new Legend is harder (although the stat boosts are easier to get, on the other hand).
Igvy



Joined: Apr 29, 2007

Post   Posted: Mar 07, 2023 - 23:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I would love to see a box spin-off that is non-progression. It would be a new type of fumbbl play. Much more suited to ppl who play every now and then.
Prob just do 1 TV amount to start.
ph0enyx13



Joined: Nov 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2023 - 02:54 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:


I don't play non-prog but wrestle is still wrestle. I still don't really see why you'd need more of it.

Though, I suppose I wouldn't take it so early.


The fact they need it to take down blodgers like Dakka said. Plus, if you are playing non-progression there are more elf and rat teams than match making. And if you put tackle on a blitzer you are wasting a spot that could have been guard, frenzy or mighty blow. Vs wrestle on a lineman gives you just as good odds vs a blodger as block tackle and you get to take guard/mb instead. Vs in progression where your mb blitzer probably has enough spp to take tackle and have 2 skills before your lineman skills once.
And if you only have 6 skills, tackle is a harder sell when it will be a dead skill against half the teams, vs wrestle which is never a dead skill.


Last edited by ph0enyx13 on Mar 08, 2023 - 07:31; edited 3 times in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Mar 08, 2023 - 03:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Hmm. Interesting.

Thanks

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
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