FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Chrisdekok

Joined: Aug 09, 2021

Posted: Apr 18, 2023 - 19:30

RDaneel: You have to take into account those stats were reached by a lot of cheating.

MerryZ: Banning stars outright seems a little heavy handed but maybe correct for the RRR. I think starts should be balanced by cost and some restricted to fewer teams (Bomber), like suggested before.

RDaneel

Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Posted: Apr 19, 2023 - 10:20

MerryZ wrote:

RDaneel wrote:

sorry I missed this... Where can I see the Bomber is Megastar and why this cannot be used in Tournament? I know in RRR Starplayer are disallowed - One thing I really appreciate about this type of tournament, which is why I participated- but I think is general. Not because they become Megastar?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/d4EGmrdz0lylahgt.pdf

In the end is a list of Mega Stars.

Atm there is option for league play to ban them in fumbbl.

RRR bans all stars now because it was too star heavy and its in way more healthier state atm.

thank you
in fact i missed this , cool to know.

RDaneel

Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Posted: Apr 19, 2023 - 10:44

Chrisdekok wrote:

RDaneel: You have to take into account those stats were reached by a lot of cheating.

MerryZ: Banning stars outright seems a little heavy handed but maybe correct for the RRR. I think starts should be balanced by cost and some restricted to fewer teams (Bomber), like suggested before.

The removal of starplayers in the RRR in my opinion is very fair. Since there is no TV gap protection in Leagues what happened very often was that many coaches created Tier3 teams of very low TV (e.g. Snots with 2 Trolls and 13 snots) and then pumped them up with inducements and two super starplayers.
Playing with a low TV team against Snots who can purchase Morg 'n' Thorg + Hakflem Skuttlespike and maybe also Riotous Rookies becomes a mess unless you play with dwarves (and you risk coming out with broken bones anyway). That's why I agree with the RRR rule and I hope will stay as it is today for the future.

In the Box you have a kind of Delta TV Gap protection that avoids this kind of matchup.
Christer cares about this. As he stated in this podcast https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=32607&highlight= speaking with Purplechest he mentioned one one of the things that bothers players the most is the unequal mathcup startup (big TV Gap for more than 30-40%).
You can't expect to have perfectly balanced matchups all the time. For me +/- 15% TV gap is still acceptable.
This is also another reason why I do not use teams beyond 30 games at the moment (if this rule is still valid https://fumbbl.com/p/notes?op=view&id=522 --> point 2)

MattDakka

Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Posted: Apr 19, 2023 - 11:14

I keep on playing teams with more than 30 games. My workaround to make big TV gaps less likely is activating teams at different TV brackets, like 1400-1500-1600.
That generally makes a big TV gap pairing less likely. It's not 100% sure, though.
There are some 1700+ teams, but they are not very common in the Box.
Most teams are low-mid TV.

Chrisdekok

Joined: Aug 09, 2021

Posted: Apr 19, 2023 - 11:58

RDaneel: That low TV tier 3 teams + a few selected stars is such a winning combination might be a symptom of these stars being to cheap/too good. Is there examples of dominating the RRR using other stars than Morg, Griff, Hakflem or Bomber? If just those 4 stars and maybe a few more that I missed was banned the RRR would work and you still got to use most star players.

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Apr 19, 2023 - 12:33

RDaneel wrote:

Since there is no TV gap protection in Leagues what happened very often was that many coaches created Tier3 teams of very low TV (e.g. Snots with 2 Trolls and 13 snots) and then pumped them up with inducements and two super starplayers.
Playing with a low TV team against Snots who can purchase Morg 'n' Thorg + Hakflem Skuttlespike and maybe also Riotous Rookies becomes a mess unless you play with dwarves (and you risk coming out with broken bones anyway). 2)

I wonder how much of this is theorybowl and how much is actual experience. I run a league, now in its eighth season, Snotlings were taken twice. The first time, the coach who took them won the "Most Cas Trophy" and came last. And the second time, he came sixth (out of nine) with a 3/1/4 record (6-10 Tds and 15-35 casualties), and didnt win anything at all.

Sure, he was a pain for everybody, but he was also giving away points, and more importantly LOTS of spps to everyone else.

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MerryZ

Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Posted: Apr 19, 2023 - 12:51

RDaneel wrote:

In the Box you have a kind of Delta TV Gap protection that avoids this kind of matchup.
Christer cares about this. As he stated in this podcast https://fumbbl.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=32607&highlight= speaking with Purplechest he mentioned one one of the things that bothers players the most is the unequal mathcup startup (big TV Gap for more than 30-40%).
You can't expect to have perfectly balanced matchups all the time. For me +/- 15% TV gap is still acceptable.
This is also another reason why I do not use teams beyond 30 games at the moment (if this rule is still valid https://fumbbl.com/p/notes?op=view&id=522 --> point 2)

That last link applies to Black Box Division if im not wrong.

No Black Box Division anymore.

C divisions schedule have different parameters.

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Kaptain Awasoam, Dicer of All Men and Women and Children and Puppies.

sebco

Joined: Feb 14, 2005

Posted: Apr 19, 2023 - 13:49

JanMattys wrote:

RDaneel wrote:

Since there is no TV gap protection in Leagues what happened very often was that many coaches created Tier3 teams of very low TV (e.g. Snots with 2 Trolls and 13 snots) and then pumped them up with inducements and two super starplayers.
Playing with a low TV team against Snots who can purchase Morg 'n' Thorg + Hakflem Skuttlespike and maybe also Riotous Rookies becomes a mess unless you play with dwarves (and you risk coming out with broken bones anyway). 2)

I wonder how much of this is theorybowl and how much is actual experience. I run a league, now in its eighth season, Snotlings were taken twice. The first time, the coach who took them won the "Most Cas Trophy" and came last. And the second time, he came sixth (out of nine) with a 3/1/4 record (6-10 Tds and 15-35 casualties), and didnt win anything at all.

Sure, he was a pain for everybody, but he was also giving away points, and more importantly LOTS of spps to everyone else.

This is not only theorybowl.

As far as I know, Royal Rookie Rumble tourneys forbid star players because of Morgflem snotlings which win too many of them when they were still allowed to play into.

I also play in a league on Fumbbl (JBL league : https://fumbbl.com/p/group&group=15085&op=view) which forbid star players because of two Morgflem snotlings teams which terrorized the league during the only season they had been authorized to play into. Finally, the best of these two Morgflem snotlings teams lost in finals but too many games with these teams have been considered to be "not interesting" and different from what league commissionner wanted for his league.

_________________
I like cheese but don't call me skaven !

RDaneel

Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Posted: Apr 19, 2023 - 14:28

MerryZ wrote:

RDaneel wrote:

(if this rule is still valid https://fumbbl.com/p/notes?op=view&id=522 --> point 2)

That last link applies to Black Box Division if im not wrong.

No Black Box Division anymore.

C divisions schedule have different parameters.

Thanks. Another thing to learn Smile

I would be interested to know the C-Scheduler association matchmaking algorithm if has been ever published.
thx in advance

JanMattys

Joined: Feb 29, 2004

Posted: Apr 19, 2023 - 14:41

sebco wrote:

JanMattys wrote:

RDaneel wrote:

Since there is no TV gap protection in Leagues what happened very often was that many coaches created Tier3 teams of very low TV (e.g. Snots with 2 Trolls and 13 snots) and then pumped them up with inducements and two super starplayers.
Playing with a low TV team against Snots who can purchase Morg 'n' Thorg + Hakflem Skuttlespike and maybe also Riotous Rookies becomes a mess unless you play with dwarves (and you risk coming out with broken bones anyway). 2)

I wonder how much of this is theorybowl and how much is actual experience. I run a league, now in its eighth season, Snotlings were taken twice. The first time, the coach who took them won the "Most Cas Trophy" and came last. And the second time, he came sixth (out of nine) with a 3/1/4 record (6-10 Tds and 15-35 casualties), and didnt win anything at all.

Sure, he was a pain for everybody, but he was also giving away points, and more importantly LOTS of spps to everyone else.

This is not only theorybowl.

As far as I know, Royal Rookie Rumble tourneys forbid star players because of Morgflem snotlings which win too many of them when they were still allowed to play into.

I also play in a league on Fumbbl (JBL league : https://fumbbl.com/p/group&group=15085&op=view) which forbid star players because of two Morgflem snotlings teams which terrorized the league during the only season they had been authorized to play into. Finally, the best of these two Morgflem snotlings teams lost in finals but too many games with these teams have been considered to be "not interesting" and different from what league commissionner wanted for his league.

I didnt say anything about the RRR. I think that banning stars in a StartingTV1000 ko tournament just makes sense.

As for the league, you kinda prove my point: they did not win. They terrorized the league? I guess, but terrorizing and being too good is two different things.
The same goes for being deemed "not interesting". It is a fair point, but it only pertains to the expectations of the league members / commissioner, not to the actual play.

In my experience, a Snotling team, no matter how Stars-packed, will rarely take the trophy home in a reasonably-long league (let's say 10-15 games + playoffs). It will be hated by all and considered cheesy as hell, but it will rarely take the Trophy home.
And if it doesn't consistently take the Trophy home, a case could be made that it is a fair team.

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Last edited by JanMattys on %b %19, %2023 - %14:%Apr; edited 1 time in total

RDaneel

Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Posted: Apr 19, 2023 - 14:42

Chrisdekok wrote:

RDaneel: That low TV tier 3 teams + a few selected stars is such a winning combination might be a symptom of these stars being to cheap/too good. Is there examples of dominating the RRR using other stars than Morg, Griff, Hakflem or Bomber? If just those 4 stars and maybe a few more that I missed was banned the RRR would work and you still got to use most star players.

I did not do a deep statistic analysis of RRR before the rule whch forbid to induce starplayer has been applied but you can easily find seasons dominated by Tier3 team low TV with massive inducement purchasing
example
Royal Rookie Rumble 507, 508, 509...

Halfling, Snots, Ogre rarely have these win rates if played 'blind' in a box with a TV gap cap (which happens under 30 games)

https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&team_id=1061379
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?id=1060432
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?id=1060409
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&team_id=1060438

etc... etcc
The coach's experience also counts a lot. These teams are all played by very experienced superstars coaches would probably maintain the same win rate by playing Tier1/Tier2 teams blindly on the Box. But in the tournament it is difficult to do 4/0/0 with a Snots team if you don't start with a clear advantage.

Certainly some Stars are cheap for what they do (especially the Bomber). On Morg 'n' Thorg I think it has been increased in price. I don't think its price is the problem. The problem is allowing a team with TV 400 to be paired in the first game against a team with TV 1000 and that is why the RRR was amended (again, rightly so IMHO)