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Poll
Season Redraft:
It is a Must. Should strictly follows BB2020 User Manual rules (15 games sharp etc..,)
26%
 26%  [ 34 ]
It is a Must. But not strictly following BB2020 Manual (f.i : after more than 15 games and/or different redraft rules... )
23%
 23%  [ 30 ]
It is nice to have and can be implemented in several way. I am flexible.
23%
 23%  [ 31 ]
I don't like it, but I will accept to be done with one of the previous option
5%
 5%  [ 7 ]
I don't like at all and I think should NEVER be implemented in FUMBBL!
12%
 12%  [ 16 ]
Pie!
9%
 9%  [ 12 ]
Total Votes : 130


RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 16:04 Reply with quote Back to top

How much is important for you that Season Redraft be implemented in Competitive FUMBBL division?

Do you like it?

Will this change your way to play?

Is something you are scared about it or you are looking forward with impatience?

Will arrive sooner or later on Fumbbl... what do you think about it?

Some poll options just to support the discussion
(without any presumption of completeness or logical accuracy! Wink )
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 16:12 Reply with quote Back to top

1) I don't like Season Re-Draft as rule. I'd rather a max TV cap (somewhere in the 1400-1600 range);

2) Of course, because it will affect the roster management and roster management affects the way I play;

3) I'm not scared and I'm looking forward to it more with curiosity than impatience; since I don't think it's the best way to keep teams in check I'm not eager to play with Season Re-Draft. On the other hand, without Season Re-Draft big TV gaps can happen (or I just can't find a game at all due to most of people playing at low TV). Since I don't like to play with TV gap nor I want to fail Box draws and since the Season Re-Draft reduces the chance of TV gap (either as underdog or overdog), then it's better, for me, to play with Season Re-Draft than without it, but it's still not the ideal way.

All in my humble opinion and from my own particular perspective.
C0ddlefish



Joined: Sep 17, 2019

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 16:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Option 1 is a little wrong. The rulebook doesn't specify a number of games as such. It suggest something like 6 but that impractical here.

I've voted for 2 because whatever league, or Fumbbl itself, have to make some choices about number of games, whether to have a TV cap etc.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 16:36 Reply with quote Back to top

RDaneel wrote:

Some poll options just to support the discussion
(without any presumption of completeness or logical accuracy! Wink )


As long as you include a pie option, you are pretty much covered.

MattDakka wrote:

All in my humble opinion and from my own particular perspective.


In your humble opinion as No. 1 rated coach on Fumbbl. Twisted Evil

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 16:39 Reply with quote Back to top

As an aside, about Season's length: in my humble opinion a 12-game Season should be better than 15-game Season, because it makes a bit harder to develop stat freaks and, more generally, to develop too much the players.
15-game Season matches the Box Trophy run of each of the 4 teams, but it could be simply adjusted by playing a Box squad of 5 teams per 12 games each. The total number of games would still be the same, 60.
The 1350k Re-Draft budget should still be ok, instead.

koadah wrote:

In your humble opinion as No. 1 rated coach on Fumbbl. Twisted Evil

Easy by using Legend players with +MA, +MA, Break Tackle, Dodge, Side Step, Sure Hands and no Re-Draft implemented!

A cheesy & dirty no Season Re-Draft exploit!

Seriously speaking, in my opinion the game breaks when players are too much developed, so I think that some trimming is required, just I don't like how BB2020 rules do it.
A Season Re-Draft's trim every 15 games played doesn't ensure that there will be no freaks at all in-between 2 Season Re-Drafts or that a team can't grow above TV 1600.
Instead, with a fixed max TV EVERY game, not just every 15 games, you are sure that the TV is kept in check game by game.
Another way to keep players in check is reducing the skill slots from 6 to 5 or 4. That would make impossible to have too developed players, no matter the number of games played by the team.
As I said some time ago, it's weird that the BB2020 rules contemplate a Season Re-Draft (which suggests that players are not supposed to develop too much) while on the other hand a player has 6 skill slots.
It would be simpler to reduce the number of skill slots a player has.


Last edited by MattDakka on May 16, 2023 - 20:19; edited 5 times in total
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 17:02 Reply with quote Back to top

C0ddlefish wrote:
Option 1 is a little wrong. The rulebook doesn't specify a number of games as such. It suggest something like 6 but that impractical here.

I've voted for 2 because whatever league, or Fumbbl itself, have to make some choices about number of games, whether to have a TV cap etc.


Yes you are right. I mixed , as I remember there was a suggestion for 15 games but in effect 15 games is what Christer I think has decided, and there is no hard cap by G&W
So option 1 whould be read in this way : ReDraft exactly as defined in the BB2020 rulebook with (a plus) the hard cap of 15 games as pre-announced in the FUMBBL (somewhere I have read this in this site).
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 17:06 Reply with quote Back to top

As far as we know, Christer talked about implementing a 15-game Season Re-Draft, here on FUMBBL.
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 17:24
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

Here's a view of how Team Value increases over games played in the C division:

Image

There's a roughly linear increase from 0 to 9 games, then it slows down up to 15 games, with a little bump at 13 games which gets eaten up by the time teams get to 15. Beyond 15, there is a noticeable jump over the next two games followed by a period of a tiny increase to maybe 24 games after which the underlying data gets small enough that variance makes it hard to draw conclusions (21 and up has less than 100 teams, and 25 and up has below 60).

I remain confident that 15 games is a good breakpoint for seasons and don't think 12 would be better. It's a 1.36M to 1.39M difference on average according to the stats.
BeanBelly



Joined: Nov 14, 2019

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 17:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Solid data Christer. Very happy to fit in with 15 game Seasons.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 17:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Not a difference in terms of average TV reached by a team, but in terms of having more games to get more easily stat boosts focussed on a single player (typically the ball carrier).
Assuming an average of 3 SPPs gained per game by a player, after 12 games a player would have 36 SPPs, i.e. only 1 stat boost, because 2 stat boosts require 38 SPPs.
After 15 games, always assuming an average of 3 SPPs gained per game, the player would have 45 SPPs, which are 2 stat boosts.

There is a huge difference between starting a Season with a MA 8 Dwarf Runner and a MA 7 one. It's less expensive (thus more appealing) to keep a stat boosted player if you have to pay less often the agent fee (due to longer Season).
In my opinion it's better to make harder to develop +2 stat-players within a single Season, especially considering that there is not much difference between the average TV reached by teams in 12 and 15 games.
The "bonus" of a slightly shorter Season is making the freak-building (and keeping) harder.
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 18:11 Reply with quote Back to top

I think Redraft is a must.
How to be implement I am flexible and depend the type of league you attend.

I also think that min-maxing is a reminiscence (or consequence) of the old rules and I think (my presumption) with redraft the developer wanted to limit and regulate this (here also the choice of random MVP). Personally I find this an improvement w/t the past. Many would disagree but I like a game with a good set of skill but not an aberration (but is personal taste)

Many fond of their teams with TV 1800 or higher, I'm not sure this will be possible with a Season Redraft with less than 15 games... surely the number at which to redraft happen matters. But maybe not so much so I agree with Christer if between 12-15 I don't think will change a lot. The important is that will be implemented in my opinion.

A very personal note as I am also a Tiers3-team player:
In the choice how to implement a redraft I think it would also have to be evaluated what a Redraft means for those who play Tier3 teams like Goblin , Vampires or Khorne who only become efficient after 4-5 games (and some drop in TV and don't increase so that curve Christer showed I think is mostly valid for Tiers1 and top Tiers 2 teams... for Goblin I experienced usually a very flat TV evolution or even a drop at the beginning and then a slow increase but not in BlackBox , where you risk the drop. Top coach are able also to be very efficient with Tiers3 in Box, sufficient to see Spence performances with his Khorne "Khildren of the Khorn" or Java with "Goblins are not a good team" but all experience a 4-5 games where TV remain flat ... drop and small raise. Even more for some Tiers3 team like Goblin keeping TV low it is a coach's choiche in order to access bribes and inducements... provided you can play with a decent TV gap matchmaking)

So for me Redraft maybe should also consider if there is a will to incentivise coach to play Tiers3 teams in the future by assuring a little bit better development (on the understanding that a Tiers3 team must remain difficult to play by definition, because it is Tiers3. But it must not become a punishment)
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 18:16 Reply with quote Back to top

With Season Re-Draft implemented teams such as Khorne, Nurgle, Vampires, Chaos will be even weaker than now. Not worth the effort.
Vampires need way more than 4-5 games to be efficient, after 4-5 games they are not even barely playable, let alone efficient. Random MVP is bad for them as well. The effect of Season Re-Draft will be making the tier 1 teams even more appealing than they are now.
As an aside, Khorne is a tier 2 team, not a tier 3.
MrCushtie



Joined: Aug 10, 2018

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 18:54 Reply with quote Back to top

RDaneel wrote:


I also think that min-maxing is a reminiscence (or consequence) of the old rules and I think (my presumption) with redraft the developer wanted to limit and regulate this (here also the choice of random MVP). Personally I find this an improvement w/t the past. Many would disagree but I like a game with a good set of skill but not an aberration (but is personal taste)


Redrafting (in my experience, either simulating by sacking players at 15 matches and trimming to a nominal budget, or as implemented in my tabletop league and in SWL) doesn't get rid of min-maxing; in fact, it can make it more prevalent (at least for the second season, haven't taken a team to 31 games here yet).

I get that some people don't like being able to build massive teams full of superstars. But in the tabletop league I was in where they set much higher redraft budgets (to placate a noisy coach who wanted to keep his whole developed team) it's led to bad experiences with rookies then coming up against highly developed teams (and not playing the inducement game optimally). So I'm all for a 1350 cap. Blood Bowl is meant to be about doing your best within a set of constraints.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 19:03 Reply with quote Back to top

MrCushtie wrote:

Redrafting (in my experience, either simulating by sacking players at 15 matches and trimming to a nominal budget, or as implemented in my tabletop league and in SWL) doesn't get rid of min-maxing;

Yes, it doesn't. A better way to counter min-maxing is removing the possibility to stack on a single player too many skills. Hence, reducing the skill slots from 6 to 5 or 4, the more skills a player can have, the more they can benefit from the "hidden" (in terms of TV) synergy bonus they have together. Also, capping the stat boosts at max +1 per each characteristic.
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 16, 2023 - 20:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Hard cap can be a solution too.
And yes of course you can minmax but after two seasons in order to pay 40k agent fees for your super hero 180k-200k legend player (very hard to become a legend in 30 games but who knows maybe is possible) or you decide to complete the team with only linos or I do not understand how you can keep minmax AND a competitive team. You will opliged to choose. And very likely from third season your minmax hero will go to retirement (maybe he can resist still one more season but I hardly can imagine s.o can keep a super player after third season w/o be obliged to unbalance too much his team
Redraft budget is not so highh and agent fees are expensives!
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