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MerryZ



Joined: Nov 28, 2005

Post   Posted: May 18, 2024 - 15:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Not that many enjoy perpetual league style of bloodbowl, probably a reason why almost none play after 15 games.

After 15 games on box there is not much competitive and people find more competitive enviroment from tournaments or play legues.

Hard capping also TV just also sounds wrong to me and dont know anyone except you who have even suggested it.

I feel this thread derails into you suggesting everyone else should how you want to play.

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asteflix



Joined: Jan 20, 2014

Post   Posted: May 18, 2024 - 15:55 Reply with quote Back to top

This thread in a nutshell :

''Vamps might be too strong at high tv tournament blood bowl play''

comments :

''High TV blood bowl is boring and box is superior phoar''

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 18, 2024 - 16:09 Reply with quote Back to top

With old rules perpetual league was popular. Cpomb was a problem but actually many people played perpetual league Blood Bowl.
Popularity doesn't necessarily mean quality or right. Many people smoke and use drugs, but both things are harmful for the health. Many people eat junk food, that doesn't make junk food quality food just because many people eat it.
We should get back to what Blood Bowl is: a game where you play the role of a coach and manage a team.
When all the teams look the same where is the coaching and team management aspect?
Low TV is not even that balanced either. I could even accept the boredom of it, but then I want more balance than now.
Low TV means playing tier 1 teams only. I don't want to play only tier 1 teams.
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 18, 2024 - 17:42 Reply with quote Back to top

There is no need to nerf anything in my opinion.

Some races benefit from the absence of redraft more than others. Vampires at TV 1500-1550 with a roster of 16 players 4 RR , Apo 2 trhowers block/Pro and one with leader and two runner blodge of which one side step/pro, will show high win rate even if played by a 9 years old boy.
As are the UW with the gutter bodge SS 2Head Sprint , as are the orcs with a blodge blitzer MA8 side step break tackle etc. etc. It easy to win with these teams, is not complicated, they are OP. so ?

If the idea passes that we need to nerf vampires by downgrading - for isntance MA7 instead of MA8 at the runner why don't we nerf the UWs and lower the gutter speed from MA9 to MA8?

I don't think GW and/or Christer will nerf anybody

At most GW it will generate new teams like they did with vampire legacy which becomes new vamp or new amazons.

When redraft comes maybe things will change and becomes more balanced but also in absence of redraft i don't care because there are plenty of way to enjoy this game ad mid/low TV and i dont think that if a team at TV1550 becomes OP is a problem of the blood bowl community.
Is maybe a problem for who want to play at mid/high TV in perpetual leagues.

And also the fact thave vampire becomes dominant in Majors, for me is speculating.
Still from roster stat in April
https://fumbbl.com/p/rosterstats?y=2024&m=4
Vampire appears to be in the middle of the win rate... i dont have impression they are OP. Of course play with or vs Vamps is complicated. As it is complicated to play vs Orcs , UW, Undead, Dwarf (with MA8 runner !) eh...

For now, in my opinion, within the limits of 15 games the Vampires are as strong as other teams of tiers1-2.
At the limit we can discuss whether to take them from Tiers 3 to Tiers 2 in the Trophy.

No need to nerf here... i really don't understand why we are focusing on vampires only in this thread and i disagree with the proposal to nerf them. They simply must be rated tiers1-2 that's all...

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beastquest



Joined: May 07, 2019

Post   Posted: May 18, 2024 - 20:53 Reply with quote Back to top

I dont think vamps need a nerf. With the right tactics they can be dealt with
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 18, 2024 - 21:09 Reply with quote Back to top

beastquest wrote:
I dont think vamps need a nerf. With the right tactics they can be dealt with

agree

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To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac
kozak



Joined: Feb 25, 2017

Post   Posted: May 19, 2024 - 20:02 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Because Hypnotic Gaze always cancelling all the target's skills is potentially too good and scales very well.
Cancelling all the skills on a 6 would nerf it.
Not saying it's the best way to nerf it, but it's an idea.


No thanks.
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: May 19, 2024 - 20:54 Reply with quote Back to top

At no point did I say they needed to be nerfed. I merely suggested concerns they will dominate majors. Redraft would be my preferred solution.
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: May 19, 2024 - 20:58 Reply with quote Back to top

beastquest wrote:
I dont think vamps need a nerf. With the right tactics they can be dealt with

Please link those games where vampires are 170 plus and played by a coach who is at least a superstar.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 19, 2024 - 21:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Current Super Star rank is like the old Star rank. I'd suggest to link games with at least Mega-Star coaches.
spinball



Joined: Jul 01, 2004

Post   Posted: May 19, 2024 - 21:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I used to play a game call HeroClix and they had a power named "outwit". When you "outwitted" your opponent's player you cancelled one power. To keep vamps viable at lower levels and to make them less powerful at high levels, what if you lost your tackle zone and only one skill with Hypnotic gaze.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: May 19, 2024 - 21:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Mega-stars+ since the new vampires.

Not so many games.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I0Xxu-RQhkbXPP_vPHT3oZsMTj8laf8Q2lZweIBXQo4/edit?usp=sharing

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2016 Skill progression - 2020 Rules! - Open play + tournaments.
RDaneel



Joined: Feb 24, 2023

Post   Posted: May 20, 2024 - 11:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I share Malmir's concern that absence of redraft making vampire OP especially in Majors or in general at whatever tournament TV 1600-1700.

Vampires' can become very efficient faster than other races, also after 15-18 games with a roster carefully developed. I would not be surprised to discover that vampire's win rate at TV 1600 (but probably also 1500) up to 1700 would equals the one of the most powerful Tiers1 team (I should do a stat of this but I am lazy).

But there is nothing to do, it is as it and likely this is mainly due to lack of redraft.

And I am not among those coaches who cry about the lack of redraft, if I want redraft I play in leagues that have it and I have a lot of fun.

Currently in competitive if i don't have a Vampire team super TV optimized (and unfortunately i don't have and/or i don't have will or stuborness to create one) I just avoid apply my teams to Majors and/or high TV brackets tournaments and/or activations in Box for teams with more than 15 games.

Easy.

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To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2024 - 12:24 Reply with quote Back to top

The fact is that, while people loving low TV can always find games in the Box, people not liking low TV can't always find games in the Box.
It's easy to say: "I don't play teams for more than 15 games" when you would not play a team for more than 15 games anyway.
It's, in other words, a fake sacrifice. Your freedom of playing 15 games or less is not affected by anything (because it's where most games take place), my freedom of playing for more than 15 games is affected by people not playing teams for more than 15 games (partly due to lack of Re-Draft and partly due to people being low TV sheeps).
I still remember people crying on forum when BB2020 and Re-Draft were announced, and now FUMBBL is full of low TV teams!
This is what I mean with "sheeps" (and please mind, I don't use "sheeps" in a derogatory way, just it helps to describe their mindset quickly): people always following the mainstream, without thinking with their own brain, without personal tastes, without a personality, without a critical spirit.
They never complain, they eat whatever soup is given to them. Or, if they complain, after a while they just adapt to the status quo, like sheeps.
Are we really true to Blood Bowl concept (be a coach, manage your team, develop it, shape it etc.) by playing over and over again max 15-game teams?
I don't think so. That said, if people like to play 15-game over and over again, although I don't like it, I'm not against that because there must be freedom of playing for everybody.
My only concern is my own freedom of playing Blood Bowl in my way (which I think it's true to its concept), which is limited by this disgusting status quo of playing mostly at low TV, over and over again.
I can't find a game with a TV 1560 Vampire team with 17 games, not a nasty TV 2300 Vampire team with 500 games and 4 Legends... I find that really insane.
At this stage let's do the next step and let's turn FUMBBL into a dedicated NAF-style site with TV 1100 teams, resurrection, no progression (NAF accounts can already be connected to FUMBBL accounts).
Currently we are not very far from that.
I know there is no Re-Draft, but I suggested alternative solutions: hard TV cap set at 1550, or 1350, if 1550 is too high or limiting the players' skill slots to 3 each as temporary workaround.
I'm not asking to play at TV 2000+, I'd like to be able to play at mid TV (1400-1550) with teams older than 15 games (gasp!). I'm not interested in making teams, playing them for 15 games, rinse and repeat.
Jan-Erik



Joined: Apr 17, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2024 - 13:12 Reply with quote Back to top

1400-1500 TV is high TV and us simple minded sheep overwhelmingly do not like playing high TV as it is mockery of Blood Bowl and nothing like the actual game which is why free thinkers can't find their high TV games.
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