awambawamb
Joined: Feb 17, 2008
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 Posted:
Aug 01, 2024 - 10:34 |
 
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...ah, the heroic last stand. are we going to see 8-players rosters like before the CLAWPOMB era?
Before journeymen, if you only had 8 players, that's what you had to field. And we early elf coaches were out on IRC looking for recovery games vs flings and gobs - usually after facing 4 undecaying khemrian mummies.
I culd see how this rule could be abused tho, by sacrificing linos to the crowd or deliberately tripping them to injury.
It's a dice game, and it's a D6 game. On a D20 or D100 system, things could perhaps be mitigated, but to find truly balanced would require so much work that GW couldn't pop out a new edition every so often and thus capitalize on that.
But overall, it could be a nice thing to have, perhaps in our Secret League. |
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Garion26
Joined: Nov 28, 2021
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Aug 01, 2024 - 11:16 |
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Just got to say love this whole thread. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 01, 2024 - 11:36 |
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| Garion wrote: | | An elastic band mechanism when suffering too many cas would be a good rule change I think. When you find your self at 7 or 6 players there's often little you can do unless you're a fast agile race. |
In 2nd edition you could bring reserves to replace the injured players while the drive was in progress.
I don't know why they removed that in 3rd edition.
I understand that with fewer players on the pitch the games speed up (speeding up the games was a goal of 3rd edition, the turnover rule was another change to achieve that), but on the other hand playing with few players left is very frustrating. As long as you can try stuff there is some fun, when you can't try anything due to being severely outnumbered it's not a fun game experience anymore. It's not a fast game like poker or a slot machine, where wins and losses are quick. Slow agonies in games lasting 1 hour should be avoided.
A compromise to make games less based on removals could be assuring 11 players at start of 2nd half, by adding Journeymen if there are not enough players after KO rolls.
That would make the coin toss luck factor weaker (some games are decided by winning the coin toss, removing many players, then when the outnumbered team receives, on 2nd half, can't properly play its offensive drive and loses the game). |
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RDaneel
Joined: Feb 24, 2023
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Aug 01, 2024 - 11:59 |
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| Sp00keh wrote: | So what is tilt then really?
Tilt often comes from the clash of expectation vs reality
You want a certain outcome, the game does not provide it, and you get angered by the discrepancy
[...]
[...]
The answer is 2 things:
Firstly: Lower your expectations. Beginners are not very good at this game, because it has so much complexity, a dedicated and experienced playerbase, and not much transferrable skills from other games. This will help your desired outcome to be closer to what is likely
The second is: Get better. If you can play and learn with a clear head and calm outlook, you will improve faster, and absorb advice & guides more effectively. This will help your likely outcome to be closer to what is desired
[...]
Ok so what should I do?
Firstly, read the section above about 'Advice when tilted'
Try and review your matches and spot your mistakes
[...] |
your post make me thinking something: I was looking at the performances of some well-known and very experienced coaches which drop their win rate by 30% in few days...
And I am becoming more and more convinced that 1/3 of the success of BloodBowl depends on the type of match-ups one is able to achieve - in addition to the sacrosanct tactical rules you indicated- : the level of skills, tiers level, and the efficiency of their roster.
I have noticed- for instance- that some very experienced coaches who usually play stat-freaked, tiers1, super optimized TV teams with hundreds of games history and 70% or more win rate, are miserably seeing their win rate plummet drop from 70% to 40% if they try to start playing (in box naturally) "new" rookie teams (even tiers 1-2 ones) or if their 'stat-freaked' ball carrier is killed or fired...
I think that in addition to the very true rules you listed to avoid tilting and play blood bowl correctly according to sequences ranging from minimum to maximum risk (move first... protect ballkeeper... ... then 2D block... 1D... blitz with big guys at the end) is very important to think about the "preparation", the pre-match and how best to optimise one's rosters for the tournament or match.
And these "smart" coaches knows this quite well Wink
So especially for newcomers it is very important to watch the coaches' matches and understand
- how they play the tournaments
- how they play gamefinder (cherry-pick)
-how they play BlackBox
You can go and watch the replays then substitute the match id (XXXX) here to see if it was played in a tournament, cherry pick or Box.
https://fumbbl.com/api/match/get/XXXXX
you will discover many tricks that will come in handy |
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To judge a man, one must at least know the secret of his thoughts, his misfortunes, his emotions, Balzac |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Aug 01, 2024 - 12:29 |
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Yes building a super-carrier is a natural outcome of the current rules and it adds a lot, particularly for bash teams
So when they die, the team suffers a big setback while they're rebuilding a new one
Also yes building an effective team will result in winning more games.. This is a bit out of scope for this thread tho |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 01, 2024 - 13:12 |
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Incredible, in the Box and Competitive division people try to build the best teams and ball carriers.
Who would have imagined that?! I thought people played there to lose with sub-optimal rosters! |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 01, 2024 - 13:24 |
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| awambawamb wrote: | ...ah, the heroic last stand. are we going to see 8-players rosters like before the CLAWPOMB era?
Before journeymen, if you only had 8 players, that's what you had to field. And we early elf coaches were out on IRC looking for recovery games vs flings and gobs - usually after facing 4 undecaying khemrian mummies.
I culd see how this rule could be abused tho, by sacrificing linos to the crowd or deliberately tripping them to injury.
It's a dice game, and it's a D6 game. On a D20 or D100 system, things could perhaps be mitigated, but to find truly balanced would require so much work that GW couldn't pop out a new edition every so often and thus capitalize on that.
But overall, it could be a nice thing to have, perhaps in our Secret League. |
My proposal isn't a fully fleshed out idea. Obviously it'd need a lot more thought to avoid abuse. But the basic premises of an elastic mechanic is a sound one. And features in most modern game design. I think it'd really add to the game. If attrition tilt didn't result in "lose more" most of the time (excluding fast agile teams) |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 01, 2024 - 13:27 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Garion wrote: | | An elastic band mechanism when suffering too many cas would be a good rule change I think. When you find your self at 7 or 6 players there's often little you can do unless you're a fast agile race. |
In 2nd edition you could bring reserves to replace the injured players while the drive was in progress.
I don't know why they removed that in 3rd edition.
I understand that with fewer players on the pitch the games speed up (speeding up the games was a goal of 3rd edition, the turnover rule was another change to achieve that), but on the other hand playing with few players left is very frustrating. As long as you can try stuff there is some fun, when you can't try anything due to being severely outnumbered it's not a fun game experience anymore. It's not a fast game like poker or a slot machine, where wins and losses are quick. Slow agonies in games lasting 1 hour should be avoided.
A compromise to make games less based on removals could be assuring 11 players at start of 2nd half, by adding Journeymen if there are not enough players after KO rolls.
That would make the coin toss luck factor weaker (some games are decided by winning the coin toss, removing many players, then when the outnumbered team receives, on 2nd half, can't properly play its offensive drive and loses the game). |
Bringing reserves on was very messy in 2nd ed. Also you didn't have the turn over mechanic then. It just causes too many problems. They've brought the mechanic back in blitz bowl which is fun. But lacks the depth of blood bowl.id mu h rather a well thought out elastic mechanic either as a one size fits all rule, or each race has their own specific elastic mechanics. Again... nothing too severe. Just a helpful little boon to stop "lose more" being a forgone conclusion |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 01, 2024 - 13:33 |
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Further to the elastic mechanic chat... I think it's important people remember this is an RPG and its the teams performance over many games that is the focus/journey. Not the individual game. So the elastic mechanic would need to be minor thing and not a big crutch |
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moph
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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Aug 01, 2024 - 13:55 |
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What would be messy about bringing reserves on during the drive? I think this would be the easiest way to go about being down to many players.
PLEASE no more race specific rules, that would be just to many chances on breaking the gamebalance, also GW is already going in the direction of rulesbloat with the special starplayer rules and the race specific traits. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Aug 01, 2024 - 14:14 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Aug 01, 2024 - 14:39 |
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Replacing players up to 11 at start of 2nd half after recovery rolls would not be messy.
It would not be perfect because outnumbering could still be possible during a drive, but still better than starting a drive with fewer-than-11 players.
If you have a team with 11 players you are supposed to play with 11 players when you receive the ball.
Sometimes that doesn't happen even with a bench of 2 or 3 players. |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Aug 01, 2024 - 14:59 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Garion wrote: | | Further to the elastic mechanic chat... I think it's important people remember this is an RPG and its the teams performance over many games that is the focus/journey. Not the individual game. So the elastic mechanic would need to be minor thing and not a big crutch |
Is it?
I'm sure that some would disagree.  |
It is yeah. The rulebook basically lays out that you are the coach of the team and it's your job to guide them to success... I guess what you consider success is variable depending on the environment etc.. That said I'm not sure off the top of my head how the current rulebook positions you as the coach etc... as I don't know the new rules off the top of my head as well as previous editions.
| Quote: | PostPosted: Aug 01, 2024 - 12:55
What would be messy about bringing reserves on during the drive? I think this would be the easiest way to go about being down to many players.
PLEASE no more race specific rules, that would be just to many chances on breaking the gamebalance, also GW is already going in the direction of rulesbloat with the special starplayer rules and the race specific traits. |
yeah I agree the extra star player rules are really badly implemented and a number of the new traits are questionable..
Bringing players back on during a drive means you stick a player on the side line in a specific spot, firstly, do you allow them to move the turn they come on? or do they have to stand there? is it any side line or a specific section of squares. if its a section of squares can they come on if they are in TZs. Any and all of these have their own problems, such as players coming on and getting immediately surfed, or coming on behind an offensive line to a more advantageous position that the team were in etc... etc.. Ultimately it doesn't add to the tactic puzzle element of the game that's the best thing about BB. it just creates some janky mechanics that are exploitable in many ways. |
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moph
Joined: Sep 16, 2020
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| Posted:
Aug 01, 2024 - 15:41 |
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There are of course questions arising on how to implement, but that will be the case with any new mechanic (like elastic band)I would think most of these problems are solvable, through playtesting.
My first suggestion:
Add two squares outside of the pitch on either side of it where the centre line meets the sideline.
At the beginning of your turn place your reserve stunned on one of these squares. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 01, 2024 - 15:41 |
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| Garion wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | Garion wrote: | | Further to the elastic mechanic chat... I think it's important people remember this is an RPG and its the teams performance over many games that is the focus/journey. Not the individual game. So the elastic mechanic would need to be minor thing and not a big crutch |
Is it?
I'm sure that some would disagree. |
It is yeah. The rulebook basically lays out that you are the coach of the team and it's your job to guide them to success... I guess what you consider success is variable depending on the environment etc.. That said I'm not sure off the top of my head how the current rulebook positions you as the coach etc... as I don't know the new rules off the top of my head as well as previous editions.
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Perhaps we should stop calling the players "pieces". 
Why be tilted by an RPG?
Anything that happens is part of the narrative of the team. |
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Secret League rosters, old style skill progression, no re-draft OR full 2016 rules. OR... 4000k All Stars! ALWAYS recruiting! |
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