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Karhumies



Joined: Oct 17, 2004

Post   Posted: May 14, 2005 - 17:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Grudge League - Question Thread


Nature of Grudge League as an Environment

My viewpoint on the nature and structure of Grudge League has been to try to make into a stable, balanced environment everyone can enjoy themselves in. My goal so far has been to make Grudge League enjoyable for both a take-it-easy fluff coach and a more serious, competitive player. I personally feel these are both valid approaches to BB.

If you guys think Grudge League should be much more fluffy and less competitive than it is now, it is a good thing if you say so! All feedback is good feedback, so we will know what you guys expect from Grudge League and what kind of things you would like to see implemented into it.

Questions for all coaches:
-Are you a fluffy, take it easy coach who plays for fun or a more serious coach looking for a challenge? Or maybe even something in between?
-Regardless of your previous answer, have you come in to Grudge League mainly to "chill out" or to play to the max?
-Are you expecting Grudge League to support your playing style somehow? (If so, give us some suggestions!)
-What are your expectations of the nature of Grudge League? = Should it be competitive, fun, or some kind of a mixture of both?


Grudge League Points

As I have said in the previous thread, the point system does not have to be taken seriously in Grudge League but I am aiming at creating a point system which can be taken seriously (in case I will create my own group someday).

Also, by giving points for CAS done in Orcbowl and TDs done in Elfbowl we are able to control what will happen in-game in those tournaments. No matter what the fluff might be, if the scoring table is always the same, coaches are MUCH more likely to play using their "regular" playing style.

Grudge League points will be given out on a per-team basis. Each team will have its own points on the group page.

Related Questions:
-Do you care about GL points at all?

-Would you like to have the point system stay or to have it removed?

-Do you think winning a single tournament is more valuable over considerable success during the whole season? = Should we celebrate each tournament winner individually or have a bigger interest on the guy who gets most points during the length of one season? Does this even matter to you (if you are not the one on top)?

-Should there be alternative ways of transfering tournament themes and fluff from Grudge League group page onto the BB field besides giving extra GL points for certain actions? If so, give us examples! Smile



Season Structure

Season structure suggestion posted by ZevinzeNompardi:

ZevinzeNompardi wrote:

not for the existing season, but for the future:
why not moving the WEMMC in the DOBC time?
this would take us to a 5 "steps" season, everyone in the 70-84 days area of which khar speaks of.
maybe the RR and Swiss will take longer (playoffs!) and the KO shorter, but that's it.

the calendar proposal itself
1-STARTS THE SEASON: start of DOBC RR and WEMMC Swiss regular seasons
2-
3-
4-
5-
6-start of the DOBC and WEMMC playoffs (maybe WEMMC won't have playoff as it is swiss, just some more turn!) AND start of Kislev KO
7-
8-
9-after 3 turns of playoff DOBC ends. contemporary end of WEMMC last turn or playoff.
10-last turn of Kislev KO (or last two if we have 32 teams here, not such probable)
11-start of the Loren KO and tribal KO with 16-32 (believe 16) teams each.
12-
13-
14-end of 16 teams KOs
15-eventual end of 32 team one(s)
16-start of Grudgebowl! say 5 games of regular season.
17-
18-
19-
20-
21-start of Grudge Bowl playoffs which all the leagues spectates in religious silence. let's say 4 turns of 12-16 teams playoff.
22-
23-
24-GRUDGEBOWL!
25-begins Skavenblight KO; 8-16 teams for the first league, let's say 16 teams -4 turns.
26-
27-
28-Skavenblight final
29-Protagonist Prowl Promotional
-STARTS NEXT SEASON

29 turns to play a season.
at 2 weeks a game means 58 weeks, something more than a year.
at the pace proposed by khar (we gain 2 weeks every 6 turns with the "7red-14dead lines" system) it would mean less than 50 weeks.
more or less and reserving to tyrant the right to give pauses for holidays.
this plans excludes the 10 days no-deadlines option because i personally (as written above) do not like the complication of having 2 systems for deadline.

what do you think?


Questions:
-Is this a good suggestion or utter crap?
--If you think this suggestion is good, do you have a suggestion for improving it to be even better? Or is it just fine for you as it is?
--If you think it is crap, suggest a better one!


-What kind of tournaments are you guys willing to play? (structure, amount of rounds, amount of weeks, playoffs/no playoffs, ANYTHING!)

-Are there any specific themes you would like to suggest for a tournament? The more fluff, the better. Smile

-Should there be alternative ways of transfering tournament themes and fluff from Grudge League group page onto the BB field besides giving extra GL points for certain actions? If so, give us examples!



Redline/Deadline rule

So far, the most popular option is 7 days redline/14 days deadline in all of the tournaments. This way it will be easy for the tournament organisers to keep track of the dates, while the 7 day redline means we can occasionally (=during playoffs at least, if not during the regular rounds) move on at double speed. Having two tournaments with different deadlines was suggested and I created a model for it but coaches thought it was too complicated in reality.

Questions:
-Are you comfortable with this rule or would you like to see it changed? If you want to have it changed, read the previous thread before posting your suggestion.



If you feel like commenting on something else or you would like to ask a question, go ahead!
All feedback is good feedback! Very Happy

_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague
Karhumies



Joined: Oct 17, 2004

Post   Posted: May 14, 2005 - 18:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Should we have our own IRC channel?

_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague
Drud



Joined: Jan 27, 2005

Post   Posted: May 16, 2005 - 10:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Karhumies wrote:

-Are you a fluffy, take it easy coach who plays for fun or a more serious coach looking for a challenge? Or maybe even something in between?
-Regardless of your previous answer, have you come in to Grudge League mainly to "chill out" or to play to the max?
-Are you expecting Grudge League to support your playing style somehow? (If so, give us some suggestions!)
-What are your expectations of the nature of Grudge League? = Should it be competitive, fun, or some kind of a mixture of both?


- Something in between. I'm defenatly a very fluffy coach, especially with my Jack's team (I love 'em, and they've never won a match (actually, they've never even scored)), who is also my only team in a league. But at the same time I'm also competitive, I like winning, and I try winning, and hopefully I'll beat up some Dark Elves in my last match Smile
- Actually.. I came to the Grudge League to make an evil Chaos team with which I could kill and maim other teams' players and they'd have to play me! :p
Nah.. I'm kidding.. a bit... Well, I did come to the league to "play to the max", but luck and my team's fluffiness quickly decided I'd rather fluff it some more.
- Well, almost no matter what the Grudge League does, it'll support my playing style. I'm a roleplayer, I love making characters for my players. I've even thought up characteristics for my rookie linemen in my head, even though I haven't written much down yet. But at the same time, once this team gets into shape, I'll start playing to win too.
- All competitive, no fun! j/k.. nah, of course we need fun. Why would anyone play a game that wasn't fun? But it's a tournament, so some sort of competition is needed.

Karhumies wrote:

-Do you care about GL points at all?
-Would you like to have the point system stay or to have it removed?
-Do you think winning a single tournament is more valuable over considerable success during the whole season? = Should we celebrate each tournament winner individually or have a bigger interest on the guy who gets most points during the length of one season? Does this even matter to you (if you are not the one on top)?
-Should there be alternative ways of transfering tournament themes and fluff from Grudge League group page onto the BB field besides giving extra GL points for certain actions? If so, give us examples!


- At the moment, not really. My team just got back in a decent state (11 players for the first time since first match), and I dont stand a chance of winning much the next while. But as mentioned above, once I start winning, I'll begin to play to win, and then GL points will be more important.
- Stay. See above.
- Each winner should be celebrated! Even if just by his own team! Wink Fluff is good! Well, I think we need some sort of celebration of the winning team of each tournament, as it'll make winning one a lot cooler, even if you're far away from the top in GL points. If you just got some more GL points for winning, it wouldn't be special, it'd just be a step towards the top, which might be very far away. For instance the Kislev Classic's Champion needs to be celebrated! Anyone in the KC are probably far away from the top, but winning the tournament still proves your team is made of the Right Stuff (and I dont mean that green Right Stuff goblins are made of)! Smile
- I'll think more about this one... It'd be cool if there were more fluffy-points.

Karhumies wrote:

-Is this a good suggestion or utter crap?
-If you think this suggestion is good, do you have a suggestion for improving it to be even better? Or is it just fine for you as it is?
-If you think it is crap, suggest a better one!
-What kind of tournaments are you guys willing to play? (structure, amount of rounds, amount of weeks, playoffs/no playoffs, ANYTHING!)
-Are there any specific themes you would like to suggest for a tournament? The more fluff, the better.
-Should there be alternative ways of transfering tournament themes and fluff from Grudge League group page onto the BB field besides giving extra GL points for certain actions? If so, give us examples!


- Good suggestion.
- No. Yes Smile
- This is not really a question, Karhumies. It's a command, and I refuse to obey! :p
- Well, I'll play any tournament that the group has, as long as my team qualifies. But I prefer Round Robins and Swiss, since everyone get more games, and not just the best teams/coaches. I also really like the Huge KO tournament you described in the last thread. With the loser's bracket. It's very good in my oppinion.
- As well as you, I know nothing of the Warhammer universe, so I cant really suggest anything but the already suggested and very well-used Orc-League VS. Elf-League Smile
- See above.

Karhumies wrote:

- Are you comfortable with this rule or would you like to see it changed?


- I like it. But it needs to be implemented. Since we're supposed to have it now, but in reality we just have a 14 day deadline, since the dates for all rounds have been set already. So just implement it completely from next tournament. I like either this suggestion of 7d-redling/14d-deadline, or the 10d-deadline.
ZevinzeNompardi



Joined: Oct 25, 2004

Post   Posted: May 16, 2005 - 18:10 Reply with quote Back to top

how many thread will we nead to speak of the same thing?
sk8bcn



Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Post   Posted: May 16, 2005 - 23:32 Reply with quote Back to top

The question is "how can we get people other tha Khar' Drud you and me give their opinions?"

I am definitly more for a fluffy thing.

What if I loose? I play to win but I won't "cherrypick" my tournament for that, if such an idea would be made in place.

I still have a hard time understand Vince proposal (if I understood right I am ok with that).

I don't care Grude points right now. Maybe after a few tournaments it will become an objective. If they are reseted then I won't probably care ever.

I would like to see a group evolving around 40 actives coach in various selection with fresh blood coming in.

The system so should take care a different levels of gaming. I m in enough tournament not to care about time under deadline but I think a too quick rate will reduce the group to only a few and finally a death of the tournament.

I do not agree with Vince that we discuss of the same thing here.

I think that
option 1:
We make clear what we do want about the league and then pick the format.
option 2:
Khar takes power and do whatever he wants and we follow.
Prymja



Joined: Feb 25, 2005

Post   Posted: May 17, 2005 - 01:56 Reply with quote Back to top

hey guys, sorry for not being part of the solution/problem so far, I just have a very active real life going right now, trying to bring together 3 to 4 miniture game leagues is tough, and very taxing on the time. Also my job seems to have decided that the summer is the best time to pick up, and demands a lot of my time ( Sad no work= no money= no FUMBBL, so I guess work comes first)

But as I see it, and from what I have seen in the past posts, which I just seemed to skim threw, half of us want the same 2 week format, but see no issue with having 2 tournies running at the same time. I like the two tournies at same time idea at this time. Only tournies I think should run by themselves is DOBC, Grudgebowl, and the next two, can't remember their names off the top of my head, and not in the mood to look for them. So then the other half wants atleast a game a week, tough on some, and some came just because of the idea of slower play.

I came because the two week per game gave me time to play, but also time to take care of real world issues.(wife wants to destroy my comp as it is) So to be honest, as of right now, I am all for two tournies running together, and a team only allowed in one at a time, sounds great, but lets not try to speed things up to much. This allows a sort of Minor league, for like the teams who seem not to be able to do anything right (cough....cough.. Mine)

And also, when I get the time, I will be a fluffy coach, I also am a role player who just happens to love stratagy games(I am still wondering when my stratagy of picking one of the strongest teams will work, but oh well lol)

So for now, I know I am a confusing person, but I enjoy this league as is, maybe a few minor tweaks will help, but nothing to drastic please.
Karhumies



Joined: Oct 17, 2004

Post   Posted: May 17, 2005 - 23:59 Reply with quote Back to top

ZevinzeNompardi wrote:
how many thread will we nead to speak of the same thing?


sk8bcn wrote:
The question is "how can we get people other tha Khar' Drud you and me give their opinions?"


Yes. The whole point of this thread was to sum up the previous one into a series of simple questions. Coaches can read these questions and answer them without having to read 3 pages full of discussion, some of which were ideas not ever going to be implemented. Only the relevant stuff is in this thread. Smile




sk8bcn wrote:

I do not agree with Vince that we discuss of the same thing here.

I think that
option 1:
We make clear what we do want about the league and then pick the format.
option 2:
Khar takes power and do whatever he wants and we follow.


I would rather choose option one. That is why as many coaches as possible should answer these important questions, not just 3 or 4 people out of the whole group. Option 2 sounds too dictator-like for me, as I am not even the head organizer. Wink

_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague
sk8bcn



Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Post   Posted: May 18, 2005 - 12:29 Reply with quote Back to top

a grop pm with a link on this thread could be wise
Prymja



Joined: Feb 25, 2005

Post   Posted: May 18, 2005 - 18:21 Reply with quote Back to top

sk8bcn wrote:
a grop pm with a link on this thread could be wise


I agree with this idea, some of the guys may not even think to go to the forums to read them. It is important that we all atleast put in our ideas, that way we can continue to grow as a league and all can enjoy.
Karhumies



Joined: Oct 17, 2004

Post   Posted: May 18, 2005 - 20:13 Reply with quote Back to top

I have now sent one. I did not notice the Group PM button at first, so I pm'd Tyrant first. Very Happy

_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague
AlcingRagaholic



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: May 18, 2005 - 20:34 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm the coach that does whatever is expected of me. I write fluffy reports, I play my games at the earliest possible times, and I stick with a league.

However, I really don't like to be bothered with the various ways of running the league. Do as you wish, it is the League Commissioner tourney, and I play it as he asks me to. If you want to play only on Mondays, I can do that. If you only want to play drunk, I can do that too.

My point? Let the league go as you think it should go... I will agree with most of what is said.

Z
sk8bcn



Joined: Apr 13, 2004

Post   Posted: May 18, 2005 - 21:32 Reply with quote Back to top

hey Alcing that's an good answer still. So we know that you are ok with almost everything
soren72



Joined: Nov 29, 2004

Post   Posted: May 18, 2005 - 21:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm behind AlcingRagaholic - 'cept for the drunk part Wink

I like the pace of the league and the changing tourneys. I'm not that good at coming up with fluff, but once in a while I make an attempt. But I love reading it Laughing

_________________
Cheers,

Soren - Back Judge, The Reformed Church of Nuffle
Habeli



Joined: Mar 04, 2004

Post   Posted: May 18, 2005 - 22:20 Reply with quote Back to top

hmm as usual i didn't read it all, as I think karhu guessed =D
but my gobbos are in as long as this league continues and will Kill if they have a change for it, play elf bowl and RIP most of the time
We'll play for fun and will gather more FLUFFY bunnies and such that will be happy to join and continue their never ending breeding.

I trust Karhu and will punish him if he betrays me... ; )
dr_scitt



Joined: Nov 16, 2003

Post   Posted: May 19, 2005 - 12:00 Reply with quote Back to top

First of all a big "well done" to Karhumies for showing such enthusiasm for the league in creating this thread and the previous thread on league structure.
Apologies for not contributing to the thread so far.

In terms of answers to Karhumies questions:
Quote:
-Are you a fluffy, take it easy coach who plays for fun or a more serious coach looking for a challenge? Or maybe even something in between?
-Regardless of your previous answer, have you come in to Grudge League mainly to "chill out" or to play to the max?
-Are you expecting Grudge League to support your playing style somehow? (If so, give us some suggestions!)
-What are your expectations of the nature of Grudge League? = Should it be competitive, fun, or some kind of a mixture of both?


-Somewhere in between. This is the first tournie I've played and I've enjoyed playing my games whilst frequently logging on to see how other teams are progressing. Obviously I'll try to win my games but not at any cost in an ultra-competitve manner. The reason I joined the league was that it seemed fun but not in too competitive manner. Hence why I chose necros which I have never played before the tournie start. In terms of fluff, my fluff writing sucks though seeing other people writing stuff is helping me write some more.
- "Play to the max" seems a bit extreme choice but I suppose I joined to compete in a tournament setting.
- Not sure what my playing style is really? Just a typical player really, not overly fouly or such. Liked the fact that the tournie seemed to discourage over the top teams such as ones with lots of DP (the Elfbowl tournie can't even be entered with DPs).
- Well it has to be competitive but also fun. One of the attractions of the tournie was the fluff with the different tournaments and points scoring/format for each tournie. The different awards that could be won by team players in each tournament as well as the tournaments themselves are also a nice addition and makes you more involved in the game if you/your opponent has an award winner in their line-up.

Quote:
-Do you care about GL points at all?
-Would you like to have the point system stay or to have it removed?
-Do you think winning a single tournament is more valuable over considerable success during the whole season? = Should we celebrate each tournament winner individually or have a bigger interest on the guy who gets most points during the length of one season? Does this even matter to you (if you are not the one on top)?
-Should there be alternative ways of transfering tournament themes and fluff from Grudge League group page onto the BB field besides giving extra GL points for certain actions? If so, give us examples!


-Bit confused by this. Are we saying the points scored in each tournie are retained (so my nercos have 19 GL points so far for the season)? If so I quite like this idea as it gives an indicator of how well a team has performed over a season.
- Well both! Each tournament winner should be celebrated but so should the most consistent team in the season. Likely this would be a team that wins multiple tournies anyway but surely the poor guy who gets to multiple finals but never wins a tournie should get some recognition.
- Hmm not sure. Though fluff should be encouraged (I'm trying) I'm not too fond of fluff awards, simply because some of us are much better writers/more imaginative of ideas than others.

Quote:
-Is this a good suggestion or utter crap?
--If you think this suggestion is good, do you have a suggestion for improving it to be even better? Or is it just fine for you as it is?
--If you think it is crap, suggest a better one!
-What kind of tournaments are you guys willing to play? (structure, amount of rounds, amount of weeks, playoffs/no playoffs, ANYTHING!)
-Are there any specific themes you would like to suggest for a tournament? The more fluff, the better.
-Should there be alternative ways of transfering tournament themes and fluff from Grudge League group page onto the BB field besides giving extra GL points for certain actions? If so, give us examples!


- Good suggestion
- Perhaps a few more small tournies for small tr teams could be run whilst the large tr tournies such as grudgebowl take place. Therefore coaches with teams unavailable for a tournie due to tr restrictions can still play. This may also help in the issue of active/less active coaches as the active coaches have another tournie to play with a different team. For example I intend to make a second team to enter the Kislev Classic with as the tr of my necros is too high to enter.
This also means we can still recruit new coaches later in the season when a large number of games will be at higher tr ratings.
- As I have no previous tournie experience I'm fine to play any structure as long as its clear and not too overly complicated.
- Hmm I'll have to think. Going by Warhammer fluff if its possible in the client we could set matches with default weather conditions (i.e Tournament in the Cold Mountains of Naggroth (Blizzard) or Sorching Deserts of Khemri (SH)). Not sure it thats possible though. Warhammer fluff would be quite nice, keeping with what has already been setup.
- Depends how far you want/can go. Is it possible to give unique items for award winners in a similar way to what was done for the Ult Invitaional winners? (Midwinter team).

Quote:
-Are you comfortable with this rule or would you like to see it changed? If you want to have it changed, read the previous thread before posting your suggestion.


- I'm fine with that, it seems to be what most coaches have decided on. In order to keep things moving, is it an idea to contact coaches who miss multiple games in a row to ask if they still wish to compete in the current tournie? This seems to be the biggest impact on tournament progression and if a coach says they aren't going to continue those games can be forfeited in advance to keep everything moving (assuming they reply). At the moment there is a team in the DOBC that has never played which slows everything down considerably whilst we wait for redline.

Hope that helps, keep up the good work! Very Happy
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