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Poll
What is your relation to turn 16 fouling?
I always make a turn 16 foul. It is a long-term habit.
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
I might occasionally make a turn 16 foul if it is tactical or if my opponent was a real pig
34%
 34%  [ 22 ]
I never turn 16 foul but I understand if my opponent does foul on turn 16, even if just for fun.
12%
 12%  [ 8 ]
I never turn 16 foul and I do NOT understand if my opponent fouls me on turn 16 just for fun (tactical is OK).
30%
 30%  [ 19 ]
If someone turn 16 fouls versus me, I won't play versus him ever again (and/or he might be added to my public black list)
17%
 17%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 63


Karhumies



Joined: Oct 17, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 02:13 Reply with quote Back to top

THIS POLL IS ONLY MEANT FOR MEMBERS OF GRUDGE LEAGUE! If you are not a member yet, you can apply here.

What is your relation to turn 16 fouling?

If you chose the first option, "I always make a turn 16 foul. It is a long-term habit.", please copy-paste it in bold to the beginning of your Grudge League team's bio. If you don't know how to make bold letters, PM a staff member and he/she will instruct you.

If you chose the last option, "If someone turn 16 fouls versus me, I won't play versus him ever again (and/or he might be added to my public black list)", please copy-paste it in bold to the beginning of your Grudge League team's bio. If you don't know how to make bold letters, PM a staff member and he/she will instruct you.



We just recently had a heated argument on the subject in our group channel, #grudgeleague . A tournament game had been very even and both coaches played it fair. Then, on turn 16, one coach makes a foul purely out of habit without any other reason (no reason is needed if you are used to playing tabletop or versus Finnish coaches, most of whom always foul on turn 16 Wink). His opponent could not tolerate such behaviour and raised a huge ruckus.

Result: the coach who had been fouled refuses to play versus the other coach ever again. However, I will not give anyone the opportunity to select his opponents, neither will I permit avoiding a certain opponent. Therefore, I will not change the pairings methods used in Grudge League. They remain as they are. If these two coaches are ever paired versus each other in the future, they will have to work it out all by themselves.


To avoid such unfortunate things being repeated in our jolly Grudge League, I have created this poll about the subject. Please vote like you feel and act according to the instructions if necessary.


[edit: since a Scand. coach raised a ruckus, I changed to word "Scandinavian" to the form "Finnish" and added a smiley. The sentence in question was never meant to be 100% serious.]

_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague


Last edited by Karhumies on Aug 13, 2005 - 11:09; edited 1 time in total
Karhumies



Joined: Oct 17, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 02:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Corrected my spelling mistakes and added the URLs to the beginning of thread.

_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague
Gatts



Joined: Jun 18, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 02:33 Reply with quote Back to top

don't like this.. it's bloodbowl.. anything goes. a 16turn foul is definetly not reason enough to cause a ruckus

I do it sometimes,
for revenge, because it fits the fluff, or because it'd be the funny thing to do (say for example a game where my wood elfes have lost 3-4 players and are left with 5 or so players on the field, all woodelfs ganging up on a orcish lineman and screaming their defiance while fouling is kind of fun in my opinion)

Don't think people should be enforced to declare if they are foulers or not, people should just have to learn to take a foul.. no options on the vote that i think suited me. I dont look as fouls as something that's much different than a block or a pass.. something that's a part of a game that i like.

Hope this is somewhat comprehensible, im kind of drunk.
Karhumies



Joined: Oct 17, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 02:44 Reply with quote Back to top

well, the thing is
-the foul suited team fluff perfectly
-the fouler coach did not see anything wrong with turn 16 fouling
-the fouling team were a few players down and the opponent stalled so the fouler coach couldn't make a two-turn goal for 2-1 win
-fouling team had no way of getting even close to the ball due to ST 4 everywhere and no Leap/pogo stick/stunty players in roster

Yet the opponent is so strongly against turn 16 fouling, he refuses to play him ever again. No exceptions.


I admit the reaction might be exaggerated but everyone is entitled to have an opinion. I just want to know if there are other such coaches in our League besides him. If there are, they better put an announcement to their team bio or this kind of thing will happen over and over again.

Please also note no one says it is illegal to foul someone who has put up such a statement to their team bio. The opposing coaches just should be informed of the possible consequences before the foul action is taken. It is up to each coach to choose if they t16 foul or not.


Some coaches take turn 16 foul for granted; "he'll t16 foul me even if I don't t16 foul him, so I better kick him first. that's how it always goes!"

Some coaches take turn 16 foul as a personal insult; "no one should ever t16 foul. It is not proper etiquette and it is ethically wrong. There's nothing to be gained by it!"

_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 03:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

Then, on turn 16, one coach makes a foul purely out of habit without any other reason (no reason is needed if you are used to playing tabletop <b>or versus Scandinavian coaches, most of whom always foul on turn 16). </b>

?! Say what?

I'm Scandinavian - I've never fouled on turn 16 nor have I ever encountered other Scandinavian coaches who did so I really can't relate to that statement. As my take on turn 16 fouling: I have no problems with tactical fouls. If the opposing coach has been nice to play against I don't really mind getting fouled either - it's just getting fouled by opponents who are generally unpleasent I don't like. And really; In a league such as GRUDGE league 16 turn fouling might even add some flavour if the teams have a record against each other or something similar, though I might never throw one in the last turn myself. But then again, who knows..?

And let's all remember people: It is just a game in the end and the players on the field aren't really there. It's all in our minds and if we allow ourselves to let such things as fouling get to us we've really just defeated ourselves in the end
origami



Joined: Oct 14, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 05:30 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that this policy is likely to have an unintended effect. It will result in people dodging those who are willing to foul late in the game. I think that having people put their fouling preference in their bios is likely to cause more problems than it solves.

T16 fouls are perfectly legal, and they actually make sense in a league in which you are likely to face the same team again. Take out the star now and your chance of winning next time is improved. The player who threw a fit about being fouled was clearly out of line.
Gatts



Joined: Jun 18, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 07:39 Reply with quote Back to top

maybe the problem is that grudge league only allows one dirty player / team. People may see that as some sort of indication that the league is supposed to be free from fouls

Oh and Redfish, about this passage:

Quote:
Then, on turn 16, one coach makes a foul purely out of habit without any other reason (no reason is needed if you are used to playing tabletop or versus Scandinavian coaches, most of whom always foul on turn 16).


I think that the ) after the passage is supposed to be a smiley, atleast i hope so, seeing that karhumies is scandinavian as well.. or atleast i thought so.
Jinxed



Joined: Jul 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 08:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Fouling on T16 is sad. Always. But no reason to not play in a tourney.

Just as childish IMO.

_________________
Nuffle sucks
Habeli



Joined: Mar 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 09:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Turn 16 is the turn when players get killed, but it shouldn't be done by fouling, let the rock do it ...

If the game was like some of my games, both coaches foul each others every turn, then turn 16 ein't a bad one =)
but these games are usually between friends and because of that either one cares =)
Aconite



Joined: Jun 03, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 09:55 Reply with quote Back to top

In one off games I can understand turn 16 fouls upsetting some people. This however is an ongoing league, so you're looking at the long term future and any damage you can do to another team, at any time, is worthwhile...

_________________
Dejected, he hangs up the phone. "Air Holes. Remember the air holes", the online pet store owner mutters while slapping his forehead.

(Brad Osberg)
LindsayD



Joined: Aug 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 10:01 Reply with quote Back to top

The only time I ever raise a fuss about a foul is if it's done purely for the other coach to have a gloaty little cheap thrill about it. Tactical fouls - no problems at all. Jokey games like Stunty etc - no problems there either. Taking my more cherished teams apart or fouling for no reason during a deadly serious tourney game - that might be a different matter.

However, it's all part of the game, and even if I'm fouled all 16 turns, I try to be philosophical about it. And sharpen my team's boots for the rematch. Wink
Aconite



Joined: Jun 03, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 10:06 Reply with quote Back to top

In a sweeping generalisation from me, from what I've seen on FUMBBL, the people who seem to get most upset about fouling seem to be those who played online before they played tabletop. Focused solely on winning or destroying, and missing the most important thing in this game: fun. Got to love all the chatting with the other coach during a game, laughing at the stupid dice rolls and such... Anyway, I digress... Smile

_________________
Dejected, he hangs up the phone. "Air Holes. Remember the air holes", the online pet store owner mutters while slapping his forehead.

(Brad Osberg)
Karhumies



Joined: Oct 17, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 11:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Since a Scand. coach raised a ruckus, I edited the first message. The word "Scandinavian" is now in the form "Finnish" and I even added a smiley. The sentence in question was never meant to be taken 100% serious.


Aconite wrote:
In a sweeping generalisation from me, from what I've seen on FUMBBL, the people who seem to get most upset about fouling seem to be those who played online before they played tabletop. Focused solely on winning or destroying, and missing the most important thing in this game: fun. Got to love all the chatting with the other coach during a game, laughing at the stupid dice rolls and such... Anyway, I digress... Smile


This is a part of the problem at hand.

a) Grudge League is a League resembling tabletop leagues
b) therefore TT coaches join GL in large quantitities
c) some, but not all TT coaches feel turn 16 fouling is just a routine
d) Grudge League is an OnLine league on FUMBBL
e) therefore FUMBBL online only-coaches join in large quantitites
f) Online-players generally take the game mroe seriously, as they have not played the game when foul CAS was worth SPPs, when doubles on a foul was a kill, when the ref only noticed fouling on doubles and when there were seriously overpowered action cards to e.g. allow a blitz action when your opponent is about to score or to drop the moving player into a trap pit full of stakes
g) These two kinds of players are a big portion of GL members but their view of the nature of the game is very different
h) conflict


LindsayD wrote:
The only time I ever raise a fuss about a foul is if it's done purely for the other coach to have a gloaty little cheap thrill about it. Tactical fouls - no problems at all. Jokey games like Stunty etc - no problems there either. Taking my more cherished teams apart or fouling for no reason during a deadly serious tourney game - that might be a different matter.


Here we have a point. Some people consider GL to be very much like regular tabletop (it's all about having fun), while some take it as seriously as any other Unranked or even official tournaments (it's all about winning and keeping my players alive).


LindsayD wrote:
However, it's all part of the game, and even if I'm fouled all 16 turns, I try to be philosophical about it. And sharpen my team's boots for the rematch. Wink


As the main organiser, I heartily recommend "sharpening one's boots for the rematch" instead of refusing to play versus the coach in question ever again. But if someone has this concept of "If you foul me on turn 16 without a really good reason, I won't play you ever again, no exceptions", then the opponent should know about it beforehand.


origami wrote:
I think that this policy is likely to have an unintended effect. It will result in people dodging those who are willing to foul late in the game. I think that having people put their fouling preference in their bios is likely to cause more problems than it solves.


There will be no "dodging" as you call it, as the pairings will remain random. If one just does not want to play versus a turn 16 fouler no matter what, then they have two options: a) forfeit the game, b) quit the league. I won't make exceptions in favor of/against such coaches or allow them to be treated any differently from the other league members.

I am just allowing such coaches to see beforehand if their upcoming opponent will foul on turn 16 no matter what. If they do foul, it's up to this foul-avoiding coach to decide if he wants to play or not.

Also, if a certain coach will foul on t16 no matter how many guys each player has on pitch, the other player should know this beforehand so he can foul him first, even if it's not normally a habit for him to t16 foul. Wink


origami wrote:
T16 fouls are perfectly legal, and they actually make sense in a league in which you are likely to face the same team again. Take out the star now and your chance of winning next time is improved. The player who threw a fit about being fouled was clearly out of line.


Nevertheless, each person is allowed to have their own ideals and principles. If someone has this concept of "If you foul me on turn 16 without a really good reason, I won't play you ever again, no exceptions", then the opponent should know about it beforehand.

_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague
Karhumies



Joined: Oct 17, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 11:34 Reply with quote Back to top

I hope my previous message clarifies the situation.

_________________
Main Organiser of
Grudge [L]eague, #GrudgeLeague @ irc.fumbbl.com
and Stunty Spinoff Series, #GrudgeLeague
MiBasse



Joined: Dec 04, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 13, 2005 - 11:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:

Since a Scand. coach raised a ruckus, I edited the first message. The word "Scandinavian" is now in the form "Finnish" and I even added a smiley. The sentence in question was never meant to be taken 100% serious.


Sort of figured that but you can never be too certain on the web. Not like I felt insulted or anything like that it's just that some people take to heart what they see written by others; don't want to be turned down just because some guy read something somewhere =) Besides - I know Humies is from Finland but that's still part of Russia, right? *Cough*
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