| Poll |
| Like the concept? |
| Looks like fun! |
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81% |
[ 199 ] |
| so... |
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3% |
[ 9 ] |
| i hate it (even there would be few legendary players...) |
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6% |
[ 15 ] |
| ah go on go on go on! |
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8% |
[ 21 ] |
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| Total Votes : 244 |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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 Posted:
Apr 26, 2013 - 11:45 |
 
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I forget, was it always no rrs?
Also no apothecary? Doesn't this give regen teams a rather large advantage?
Also has the max 50% of positional rule been removed? |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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It was always no team re-rolls I believe, but we've added no Leader and no KO table re-rolls (though that last bit is being reviewed with testing)
The no apothecary has worked out well so far. bghandras has been stress-testing this with a Khemri team to see if it becomes too big of an advantage, but in general it's not worked out too differently to just having higher armour.
All player limits have been removed, 50% positionals, custom rosters, all gone. This combined with the minimum 11 players has been really interesting. Teams having different kicking/receiving line-ups, some traditionally weak teams performing much better, and (importantly) teams nearly always having 7 players at the start of a drive. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2013 - 12:18 |
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Hmmmmmm, well I don't think the 50% rule worked well, however the aim of it was replicate being a pub team.
This would mean something like an orc team would only ever play with positionals, which for me goes against the premise of BB7s.
Obviously I haven't done any testing on this, but no apo, doesn't sound 'sound' at all. Regen teams pay for regen via expensive rrs. As BB7s isn't using rrs at all, Regen teams naturally have an advantage, which is boosted further by the fact that apo teams may not have one.
What's happening with the 'recruited to a pro team' style rule? |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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Well, the fluff of the league is changing so the large amount of positionals doesn't clash wth the premise any more. It's a complete re-do. This change also saw the removal of the drafting rules as it was believed that they discouraged recurring play and the primary focus of the 'new' 7s was to be fast, accessible and fun to play.
I'm testing as orcs and humans. Often I do only field positionals but not always. This hasn't become a problem at all as looking through the rosters it's the traditionally weaker teams (I don't like saying tiers) that have the most positionals. My Humans are very competitive. I set up 4 blitzers 3 catchers, or 3 blitzers 4 catchers, on offence I add a thrower in place of one or the other, linemen replace catchers if I'm getting a beating. It all balances quite well. My Orc team always has 4 blitzers, but the 3 BOs, 2 throwers, goblins and the DP linemen all get interchanged regularly.
The Regen thing has been fine so far. Really you're looking at Necromantic, Undead and Khemri, 3 of FUMBBLs 'forlorn' races. This gives them a boost, but not one that makes them a superior choice. Khemri, for example, struggle with any ball handling without their re-rolls.
I will point out that these are all problems we theorised before going in this direction, and none have proven to be the problems we imagined.
If you're curious come and give it a go. It's more balanced than it sounds  |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2013 - 12:38 |
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I'm definitely curious, I always have been with 7s. 7s (actually I think 8s would work better) is a format that could work well in CRP, where I feel most formats aren't. However I think the new layout is going to promote CRPesque problems.
So the new premise seems to be professional BB, but in a 7s format. Kind of like full side rugby vs 7s rugby?
Personally (and I do wish you guys the best with 7s) I feel you're making a mistake. The pub feel, was excellent, and the removal of stars was characterful.
Limiting positionals as the system did (and spp growth) would be a better format in CRP, where teams have become very artificial. As it is now, you're going to fall into the same pitfalls the progressive environments do (a few stars and some make weights). |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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I partly share your view. None of the decisions were taken lightly or without thought. Me, bghandras and BlizzBirne (the remnants of the committee) had back-and-forth discussions for weeks on all of these issues. I was the main defendant of the old fluff and player draft ideas from the old 7s, but I never played in the old 7s and the others had a lot of games under their belts and ultimately it came down to this: It was believed that 7s before died off because people didn't keep playing, and people didn't keep playing because players leaving after so many games results in coaches not wanting to play games. The feel and character are great for getting people involved, but don't have the longevity of solid mechanics and replayability. So we decided that where the 2 clashed we'd go with mechanics over fluff, and our main focus was accessibility and quick games as we believed this was the main reason people play 7s.
All of the other decisions kind of stem from there. I've been working on new fluff as it's still something we want to be a part of the league, but removing the draft and allowing inducements (for mechanical reasons) didn't marry well with the old fluff so the direction changed.
I don't think the teams feel artificial, but they are only testing teams at the moment. There's a lot of value in skill underused in 11s play, like catch and surehands.
Only time will tell if we're making a mistake or not, but the early signs are certainly positive. We've got a format that is always exciting and always competitive. Games can change in a moment, and a bad first half doesn't ruin the second. |
_________________
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude
Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
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BlizzBirne
Joined: Apr 29, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2013 - 14:22 |
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just to throw into the discussion - there is an element in the combination of no rerolls, no apo, no complicated restriction and no drafting system: the outset we started with was fast games, balanced impact of casualties, unique balance/gameplay. any game can turn, because almost every fail remains a fail with rerolls. turnover percentage is huge, which brings an amateur feeling while you play. we also wanted dead to remain dead. 
regarding the races and e.g. the regeneration advantage: it is certainly there, but so far not a game deciding moment in my opinion. the balance between races oddly enough exists, we have so far not found a "best build" or "best race" - but the balance is a very different one compared to 11s (except for halflings still sucking i am afraid).
the added coaching component of who to field with different lineups is a very nice and unique experience i think. it is different from 11s with 5 players on the bench, because you can only add linos there, which doesn't increae your tactical options really (well, we can argue about some cases, like skaven of course). whereas in 7s, you basically have too many positionals to use all in one drive anyway.
there are some fears we dont have experience with yet. an extreme case might be lizzies, imagine 1 kroxi and 6 sauri with two skills each on defense. they won't score likely but still ...
harvest - come join a few test games. since you're sceptical, you make a perfect tester. force the flaws to shine through so we face the necessary corrections asap. just isolate a few of your thoughts, test them with a team in a few matches. matches usually are really fast. if both coaches do not delay anything, you can make it in 30 minutes. usually 45 i think. |
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BlizzBirne
Joined: Apr 29, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2013 - 14:25 |
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just to add: a sort of further restriction of growing few big stars might become necessary. if it does, we should find a way that is easy. all system, drafting, aging, or whatever, have their pros and cons. this will be a discussion later, depending on finding with more mature test teams. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2013 - 14:35 |
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All good and fair points. Personally I think you've given up great fluff and mechanics; and I believe you will (or what I perceive to be) fall foul of the usual CRP problems.
Anyway all the best, it's a great league and deserves to thrive. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 26, 2013 - 22:08 |
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I beleive it will be a major drive that you can make a normal team (with 11 players), no need to get a dummy game, but you can go right there, plug in and play.
It is very simple, elegant, accessible. And the test rules resonate with that as well during the game. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 27, 2013 - 05:05 |
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question: these test teams, if the rules seem to be working out, will they be able to be carried over into the main BB7s league later on? |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 27, 2013 - 09:17 |
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It is not decided, but there is a risk they wont be allowed there for the following reasons:
- The team names start with test differentiation
- The goal is to provide quick game finding, accessible ground for everyone, so it makes sense to motivate oftem playing coach (like myself) to create new teams and develop them
- The client options will be most probably available in the tournament format, so i expect lots of open round robin league formats when the tires are kicked. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 27, 2013 - 09:25 |
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Nightbird
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jun 03, 2013 - 00:16 |
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So what's going on w/ this guys 
I've been into 7's chat a few times & it's still a ghost town.
What gives
Not sure I like the change from halving the positionals, but I'm willing to give it a go & see what happens. I miss all the 7's fun I used to have  |
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"If most of us remain ignorant of ourselves, it's because self-knowledge is painful
& we prefer the pleasures of illusion." ~Aldous Huxley |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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Sorry, I've been on holiday. The chat isn't used by many people at the moment though I've still been going on when I can. We've got quite a few games in and I think we'll need ready to go soon. I've been working on the new group page and that's almost done. If you wanna get involved in the current testing then send me a pm but if you wanna wait for launch expect to hear something in the next couple of weeks  |
_________________
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude
Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
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