thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Nov 12, 2015 - 05:41 |
 
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> I like the fact that the official divisions use the official rules.
Chaos Pact, Slann and Underworld are not in CRP1, I believe.
As far as I can remember, the first principle of interpretation dispute was "let Nuffle decide":
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If there are two possible interpretations of a rule and you want to speed up play, simply roll a dice in game to decide which one is correct then check later. Remember it’s only a game!
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http://www.thenaf.net/blood-bowl/rules/clarifications/
The only problem with this principle is that we can't check back anymore for more clarification.
PS: When I first wrote this comment, I thought that the actual killstack was only one possible interpretation of CRP1. Then I reread the skill descriptions and now think it's the only natural interpretation. |
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Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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Nov 12, 2015 - 06:51 |
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| Christer wrote: |
In this case, the people who enjoy CPOMB as it stands are a pretty significant part of the Blackbox player base and a change poses a real risk of making the environment less fun for these people.
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-1,000 I am speaking for those that have left already, or play much less and those that are never going to join due to CRaP.
Maintaining a broken status quo to appease the people most dedicated to breaking the game is like catering to the criminals to the detriment of the law abiding. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:08 |
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| thoralf wrote: | > I like the fact that the official divisions use the official rules.
Chaos Pact, Slann and Underworld are not in CRP1, I believe. |
That's schematics, we could say that LRB1 or 2 is the official ruleset, as that is what GW went back to for the last boxset to be released.
However the NAF recognise Icepelt (lrb 6). Cyanide had Icepelt up on their site. So I think it's CRP with the lrb 5+/6 races that we are considering official. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:17 |
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| Catalyst32 wrote: | | Christer wrote: |
In this case, the people who enjoy CPOMB as it stands are a pretty significant part of the Blackbox player base and a change poses a real risk of making the environment less fun for these people.
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-1,000 I am speaking for those that have left already, or play much less and those that are never going to join due to CRaP.
Maintaining a broken status quo to appease the people most dedicated to breaking the game is like catering to the criminals to the detriment of the law abiding. |
You shout at those clouds old man, go get em! |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:25 |
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| Christer wrote: | | In this case, the people who enjoy CPOMB as it stands are a pretty significant part of the Blackbox player base and a change poses a real risk of making the environment less fun for these people. |
I guess we knew this was the sentiment, but it's still jarring to hear. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:30 |
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Based on my recollection of a FC chat with Uedder a few weeks ago, I spent an hour searching for the actual authority over CRP1. I've read some things about BBRC, Cyanide legal rights, and the NAF. I can't find anything.
Is there an official authority over BloodBowl nowadays?
If there isn't, I'm not sure in what sense we can speak of "official divisions" and "official rules." At best we could speak of CRP1 as the canonical rules for BloodBowl, and B and R as the competitive divisions of this website.
B and R are competitive, but only locally. You don't use the results in these pools to play outside Fumbbl, say in a World Championship. The CR, TV, coach standing, or tournament wins don't matter the same way ATP sanctioned events impact on the players' rankings.
A rulebook can't stand alone. If no institution has moral authority over the CRP1, I don't see the point of getting "more Catholic than the Pope," as we say in French.
Until the NAF (or else) becomes a real federative entity with moral authority over the CRP1, applying CRP1 to the letter becomes an house rule.
PS: I missed all the comments above when I wrote this, but I need to get some sleep. |
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Dunenzed
Joined: Oct 28, 2011
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:44 |
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| BillBrasky wrote: | | I like the fact that the official divisions use the official rules. I do think league is the correct place for house rules. |
I recall one of the arguments around this was ensuring accessibility - i.e. the rules used here were consistent with those used elsewhere, allowing an easier migration of new players to fumbbl that may have played elsewhere. It will be interesting to see if the BB2 divergence will be significant enough to cause issues for those coming to fummbl on the back of this gaming experience. |
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rollup1A4
Joined: Oct 17, 2015
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Nov 12, 2015 - 07:54 |
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I don't like the idea of house rules in the competitive divisions, because right now there's one central well-defined place to figure out how to play blood bowl here, and that's CRP. Once you start adding in other stuff, that means you need to read the CRP book, then go somewhere else and read what WE'VE changed. Presumably IP law prevents someone from writing those changes into CRP and putting them here, so CRP++ is not feasible, I would think.
The way to "fix" box, if it really needs fixing, is to get more coaches to play soft teams, that's actually just it. Box is "tough" because you don't get to pick matches, so you can't avoid rough teams, but if there were less rough teams and more soft ones then you wouldn't get 10 clawpomb in a row or whatever people claim to be getting.
Besides, if your blood bowl experience is so diminished by NOT having the killstack nerfs in place, then there exists a perfectly good place to play with those rules, L. Imposing those changes on an entire division just because YOU don't want to go where you can play with them just feels selfish. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:00 |
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I don't like house rules because my pet ideas are better than your pet ideas and because nobody thinks my ideas are the best thing they've ever heard in their lives and they totally want me to be their heir, I defer to what is actually written and immutable. |
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RC
Joined: Sep 22, 2005
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:20 |
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House rules is how Plamsoid started. Don't be like Plasmoid. |
_________________
"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support group for that. It's called EVERYBODY, and they meet at the bar." |
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easilyamused
Joined: Jun 06, 2008
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Nov 12, 2015 - 08:24 |
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[quote="thoralf"]Based on my recollection of a FC chat with Uedder a few weeks ago, I spent an hour searching for the actual authority over CRP1. I've read some things about BBRC, Cyanide legal rights, and the NAF. I can't find anything.
Is there an official authority over BloodBowl nowadays?
If there isn't, I'm not sure in what sense we can speak of "official divisions" and "official rules." At best we could speak of CRP1 as the [b]canonical rules[/b] for BloodBowl, and B and R as the [b]competitive divisions[/b] of this website.
B and R are competitive, but only locally. You don't use the results in these pools to play outside Fumbbl, say in a World Championship. The CR, TV, coach standing, or tournament wins don't matter the same way ATP sanctioned events impact on the players' rankings.
A rulebook can't stand alone. If no institution has moral authority over the CRP1, I don't see the point of getting "more Catholic than the Pope," as we say in French.
Until the NAF (or else) becomes a real federative entity with moral authority over the CRP1, applying CRP1 to the letter becomes an house rule.
PS: I missed all the comments above when I wrote this, but I need to get some sleep.[/quote]
The authority over BB is Games Workshop, they own the ip. They took the decision to stop working on the rules and disbanded the bbrc which is why we have CRP.
As such CRP are the official rules for BB, Christer owns the site and wants the 2 main competitive divisions (B &R) to remain as close to the official rules as the client will allow. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Nov 12, 2015 - 11:06 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | thoralf wrote: | > I like the fact that the official divisions use the official rules.
Chaos Pact, Slann and Underworld are not in CRP1, I believe. |
That's schematics, we could say that LRB1 or 2 is the official ruleset, as that is what GW went back to for the last boxset to be released.
However the NAF recognise Icepelt (lrb 6). Cyanide had Icepelt up on their site. So I think it's CRP with the lrb 5+/6 races that we are considering official. |
That doesn't make it any clearer. 
GW official still seems to be CRP though the NAF use Icepelt. Cyanide have Icepelt + their own modifications.
None of that seems to be LRB6 as they are missing the bank.
| Catalyst32 wrote: | | Christer wrote: |
In this case, the people who enjoy CPOMB as it stands are a pretty significant part of the Blackbox player base and a change poses a real risk of making the environment less fun for these people.
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-1,000 I am speaking for those that have left already, or play much less and those that are never going to join due to CRaP.
Maintaining a broken status quo to appease the people most dedicated to breaking the game is like catering to the criminals to the detriment of the law abiding. |
I've heard quite a few reasons for sticking to the CRP. Keeping the CPOMBers happy sounds like the worst one. I imagine that some of those people using CPOMB are mainly doing it because everyone else is.
I suppose I'll feel less guilty about chucking a CPOMB team in now.  |
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[SL] + Official Stunty teams. Progression KO. Old & new teams welcome. 29th May! |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Nov 12, 2015 - 15:53 |
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> The authority over BB is Games Workshop, they own the ip. They took the decision to stop working on the rules and disbanded the bbrc which is why we have CRP.
The second sentence contradicts the first. If they disbanded the only official institution to oversee the rules, GW in effect has relinquished its authority over the game. The NAF became the official body ab nihilo.
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> As such CRP are the official rules for BB, Christer owns the site and wants the 2 main competitive divisions (B &R) to remain as close to the official rules as the client will allow.
I'd rather let Christer speaks himself for his wants. However, his last comment clearly refers to "the people who enjoy CPOMB." He also says that he tries "to keep myself up to speed on how the community shifts over time." Deferring to Christer when he defers to the community looks circular to me.
The main distinction between B&R and L is not the competitive status, but the authority status. Nothing prevents league play from being competitive. From what I've seen, it's quite competitive indeed.
However, B&R are competitive in the sense that they are the two pools that get you Coach Rating and access to Fumbbl tournaments. Both are local things, and carry nothing "official" beyond this website. The ratings have not been validated; they can't, in my opinion, at least because of the way R operates. (The possibility of more than 500 TV differentials in B makes it suspicious too.) The tournaments carry no external weight: the Fumbbl Cup champion is not the World Champion of Blood Bowl.
There's nothing "official" in any of this. BloodBowl is a tabletop game that has become server-based. There are many comparables that could inspire this community and the site owner (*). The converse is also true: Fumbbl has accumulated an experience base that no other BB entity can so far claim.
The CRP1 was meant for "leagues that last for long periods of time (e.g. for months or years rather than weeks)." We're talking of tabletop play here. It cannot have been knowingly meant for eternal online pools. Only Fumbbl can report on the effect CRP1 has when you run it to its limits.
There are thus two exploits at work here: one is procedural, the other is political.
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> I defer to what is actually written and immutable.
This is a privilege we don't even have for the Bible or the American constitution. Until we can program written dogmas that bootstrap themselves, we'll need institutions to warrant them. The Bible has been the object of a revolution in the Anglo-Saxon world, and the American constitution is the result of one.
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> But if you ever do feel up for trying out even a short trial change I'll be one of the folks standing up and claping.
Clapping is good, but donating is better. The best way to see if the changes would be welcome would be to do the same as was offered to replace Borak. Armchairs seldom beat experiments, and money talks.
Speaking of which, my icon just turned silver. I need to do something about that.
Bye,
t
(*) From the top of my hat: Poker, Scrabble, Go, Xiang Qi, Ticket to Ride, Diplomacy, Mind Games, and so on and so forth. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Nov 12, 2015 - 16:08 |
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| RC wrote: | | House rules is how Plamsoid started. Don't be like Plasmoid. |
QFT! |
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Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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mdd31
Joined: Oct 23, 2014
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Nov 12, 2015 - 16:29 |
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It is amazing how upset people get over one simple set of rules. And not even over all the rules, just one TINY little subset that has become known as Clawpomb. Kind of funny and kind of sad all rolled into one.
I can thankfully say from my experience that this is a case of the vocal minority making a big deal out of something most people really don't care about. And thankfully the person in charge is wise enough to see beyond the loud talkers and actually understand what the bulk of the user base (and FUTURE user base) want to see happen. Its not just about making people happy today but making sure there is a player base for the future.
If all the people who seem morally offended by the Clawpomb "exploit" quit tomorrow and it was a large number of people then I am sure that would make an impression. But of course they won't quit and there isn't enough of them that even if they did it probably wouldn't be noticeable to most of the remaining player base. And you know the last sentence is true because if it wasn't then the change to Clawpomb in Box would have already been made to avoid the mass defection of the morally offended players who have been complaining.
At the end of the day people need something to complain about it, if it wasn't this it would be something else. Its just the way of people. |
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