chunky04
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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 Posted:
May 12, 2004 - 07:55 |
 
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| LordSigmund wrote: | Raimius> because BCs are big bellowing stompy wild things, who run around and trample on things, youd be hard pressed to teach one how best to punch someone to stop them from defending against it, or how best to block someone's attack, theyd just smack them in the face and then stomp up and down on them
chaos warriors and black orcs have, imo, a greater measure of intelligence and possible restraint, hence G access
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Um, Lord Sig, this is a very strange statement if you're trying to justify it by fluff. Not that many know CD fluff well enough to know that but oh well. |
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chunky04
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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May 12, 2004 - 08:31 |
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| Sparticus wrote: | Think after reading this i might get ganked
But reading the dwarf Team roster it was a complete joke how can u take a team seriously... deathrollers Bomber's, beard trimmers honstly it looks more like a goblin team sheet....why not try this, take tackle or block off there longbeards (we have a all block team now norse) drop there cost by 10k, and give tackle to there blitzers just makes more sence.just my 2 cents id loke to see the dwarfs toned down, i belive they are a bit over powered atm... |
The secret weapons don't really add much of anything to the Dwarfs IMO.
Chainsaw: if you can get the started after multiple attempts at 5+, you now have a Dwarf good at hurting things (which they often weren't bad at already) who is now much easier to hurt if you knock him over - not that powerful IMO, I'd rather another longbeard in terms of effectiveness myself
Deathroller - now you have a Dwarf without block who is off for the rest of the game if you knock him over - the most fragile player on the field for a Dwarf team, and expensive, so why bother?
Bombs - now this is the useful one, but not because he has bombs. You now have an extra runner for one drive per game, which is very good. |
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chunky04
Joined: Aug 11, 2003
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May 12, 2004 - 08:36 |
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All in all, I think the changes are interesting, can't really say good or bad till they've had substantial playtesting, as what won't become truly clear until then is how they perform as a whole. People tend to focus in on one change at a time and cry out omg! that hurts my team! kill it! without really considering the balancers, and I've already seen a few things which suggest there will be some very subtle interactions between various aspects of the new rules. |
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chunky - you are eloquence on legs |
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Michael_Warblade
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 12, 2004 - 08:52 |
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OK Chunky and others
1. With the new Rules Deathrollers DONT get Auto injured on knock down results
2. While the Undead mummies do get slightly weaker it is not that bad i mean you are still high strength (ST5) and if you dont like it just play Necromantic or Khemri (both are better Especially as FG's still have general access)
3. Yeah a dwarf chainsaw will hurt himself more than an opponent (with only Mv4 you shouldnt get blocked before you can take him out)
4. While Strength access on wights would be good it would make them too strong (however removing 2 ghouls from Necro and Undead teams and replacing them with wights would help a little) personally i have no trouble playing with my necros despite the fact that i no longer have 4 wights (except on my old divX team)
5. the Extra money will mean you should have an apoth every match easily (if you win so just play to win)
6. Khemri Were too Strong (I should know i play as them and I have 34 cas in 7 games) with no block on mummies it should be more fair on any team that plays them
7. No aging is good (even if we probably will be limited to 5 skills a player to make up for it)
8. Choice of MVP will make it easier to get skills on those big guys or on positionals you feel you need to improve (2 games = 1 skill 4 games = 2 skills) also helps elves as in all your matches make as many passes as you can then just start giving them the MVP in order (so you have a stack of 2 skill players in a very short amount of time) |
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Pardus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 12, 2004 - 09:10 |
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BC's were big guys at one point |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 12, 2004 - 09:48 |
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1. Dwarves don't need any help knocking down their opponents. They are the best race at it. Why give them a deathroller that they can buy as part of the roster? And that is now more likely to last longer than before? Do people actually think dorfs need any help in making blocks? 
2. Losing G access is not a huge loss... but it is for undead a hell of alot more than for khemri who can get enough players with guard to get 3 dice blocks, undead are limited to just two S access players... and this for a bashy team that unlike orcs, dwarves and khemri do not get a specialist thrower with passing skills access.... thats right, a bashy team with worse throwers, worse access to guard, only 2 players starting with block, and whos main scoring players have no regen. Fantastic.
3. Again, even if you choose not to use a chainsaw, it still is an extra option for the dorf coach. With 40k rerolls you can afford to burn a couple on trying to start it... thats ~80% chance to start in the first 2 turns rerolling the attempts both times. Doesn't sound useless to me for a +3 armour roll.
4. I disagree, wights now need S access badly. They are overpriced for their usefulness and leave undead with little hitting power compared to khemri and necro.
5. Hahaahahahahahaahaaaaa...!!!! Increased money????? Hahaa-hahah. Winning is average 70k, losing is average 45k, take off an apoth each game and winning is 20k and losing is -5k. For gods sake, NO FREEBOOTED APOTH AT THIS PRICE... please.
6. With freebooted apoth khemri goes from being marginally broken to being one of the handful of races actually viable to play (the others being necro, dwarf, orc, rotters), yet with 4 mummies (or 5 with just a little TR imbalance) probably actually gain from the str 4/5 players mostly losing access to general skills. Which opposing player is going to knock a mummy down? Most likely it is an opposing str 5 big guy, which now doesn't have block either... I think BG losing easy access to block + tackle is a positive idea to reduce their dominance, but other ST 4 or 5 players like mummies and bull centaurs should get G access still. Instead change those races' rosters to something a little less powerful?
7. No aging = game dominated by teams that have rosters composed of a few elite players and the rest linefodder... just like khemri. Pfft.
8. Choosing MVP helps low ma low ag bashy teams, anyone saying otherwise is trying to con people.
Conclusion: almost every change in this vault seems to favour a handful of teams, sadly those that were considered strong already (khemri + dwarves). Some smaller changes (such as BG losing G access, making the kick off table a little less harsh) I can agree with but the majority are to me obviously broken even without bothering to test them.
If the apothecary becomes 50k freebooted I'll be quitting bloodbowl, it can't possibly work at that cost and winnings level. |
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Azurus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 12, 2004 - 09:50 |
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| Mirascael wrote: | | BTW: It seems like some coaches claim undead/khemri would be nerfed way too much by these rules whereas other coaches complain about regeneration being broken. |
I think this is because they're actually talking about completely different issues.
The coaches who are complaining are talking about the team's on-pitch strength, where they have been weakened.
Those saying regen is too good are talking about the long run and how it's easier (and massively cheaper) to keep the team alive than with other teams. |
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thmbscrws
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 12, 2004 - 09:51 |
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| Michael_Warblade wrote: |
8. Choice of MVP will make it easier to get skills on those big guys or on positionals you feel you need to improve (2 games = 1 skill 4 games = 2 skills) also helps elves as in all your matches make as many passes as you can then just start giving them the MVP in order (so you have a stack of 2 skill players in a very short amount of time) |
It had occured to me how usefull this would be for things like black orks but i hadn't noticed how incredible it would be for elf linemen too. Would take no time at all to have a full team of blodge linemen, very nice for the elf side. |
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Printzlau
Joined: Nov 01, 2003
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| Posted:
May 12, 2004 - 10:10 |
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| Britnoth wrote: | 3. Again, even if you choose not to use a chainsaw, it still is an extra option for the dorf coach. With 40k rerolls you can afford to burn a couple on trying to start it... thats ~80% chance to start in the first 2 turns rerolling the attempts both times. Doesn't sound useless to me for a +3 armour roll.
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You don't need to roll to start the chainsaw anymore. |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 12, 2004 - 10:23 |
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| Printzlau wrote: | | Britnoth wrote: | 3. Again, even if you choose not to use a chainsaw, it still is an extra option for the dorf coach. With 40k rerolls you can afford to burn a couple on trying to start it... thats ~80% chance to start in the first 2 turns rerolling the attempts both times. Doesn't sound useless to me for a +3 armour roll.
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You don't need to roll to start the chainsaw anymore. |
Ugh.... that is so broken. As if dwarves need a +3 automatic armour roll player running loose for an entire half.
Where are the rule changes to nerf these teams instead of making them insanely overpowered? |
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Aequitas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 12, 2004 - 10:37 |
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| Colin wrote: | | Winnings are the same regardless of TR with these rules. |
Err, alright then! Yeah.. That's pretty sweet news for my Evangelists. Well, kind of. Aside from the fact I'll be buying apo every game I can afford to. Basically limiting my income to 10k/game, just how it is right now with a full-time apo. Kind of a confusing change. |
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The goggles, they do nothing! o_0 |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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| Posted:
May 12, 2004 - 10:40 |
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The armour roll goes both ways (ie when the chainsaw maniac is knocked over). Besides the secret weapons now only last for one drive, which is quite a restriction for such expensive players. If they fail to cause casualties (highly likely) then they have just boosted your TR with little on field benefits. |
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I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
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Michael_Warblade
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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May 12, 2004 - 11:02 |
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Brithnoth Read your number 6. carefully first you state that the only player who is going to knock an mummy down is a BG and this BG is unlikely to have block and then later you state that mummys should still have access to block? why so they cant be knocked down at all? Also most ST 4 players (Chaos Warriors, Black Orcs, and Flesh golems) still have general skill access
Britnoth in reply to your number 3.
A dwarf chainsaw is too slow to be effective even with 2 gfis he can only move 6 squares in 1 turn and hence is unable to catch up with most players (he will quickly be blitzed and brought down and then he has a +3 to his own armor roll if the opponent has MB its even worse (+3 armor and + 1 injury))
7. Hmm i thought that was what already happens with every team (ie woodies WD's, Elf Catchers, Darky witches, Chaos Warriors, Werewolfs, Ghouls, most BG's and probably some other players/types) capping at 5 skills with no aging is better than 7 skills with aging and they will have to diversify their team as no one player can have every skill you need
1. I cant and wont defend the Deathroller I think it is not nesessary
4. Sure wights with ST access would be good but most undead and necro teams have winning records (at least the ones i have seen) so is it really nesessary?
Sure undead isnt the bashiest of teams but that was never the intention of the side the intention was to make a side which relied upon its skilled players (the ghouls wights, mummies, wolfs and Golems) to win and it works pretty well although guard heavy teams will hurt them pretty bad. |
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Aequitas
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 12, 2004 - 11:18 |
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Undead? Not meant to be bashy? Well, maybe not extremely. But come on, they're the UNDEAD! They're not elves, they're disgusting creatures feasting on the corpses of those they kill (if they can beat the Necromancer  ). Giving the <b>2</b> Wights access to strength skills isn't exactly a horrible thing. It's only <b>2</b> Wights, who desperately need access to Guard/MB.
I don't think the original intentions of Wights were for ball-handling purposes, as they currently are. That's what the Ghouls are for, running, throwing, catching, stumbling, dying, etc. Wights were meant to be blitzers, so give them their tools of the trade! |
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The goggles, they do nothing! o_0 |
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asperon
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
May 12, 2004 - 11:27 |
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Something that the Player Value system should take into account is injuries, esp the attribute decreasing ones,
since as it is right now a player with +ST, -ST would still have his cost increased?! And lets face it, a injured player
(might it be minus in a attribute or an niggle) is less worth to the team then an uninjured player. |
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anything with two wounds will have a lot going for it |
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