Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Aug 23, 2005 - 16:55 |
 
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I was still back on Page 5 at the time reading another of Macs endless rants. Hadnt got to the civil part yet. |
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 23, 2005 - 17:38 |
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Nice one! But with YOU on team USA, germany ain't that bad anymore... :p
Seriously couple of things...
First of all this is not Christers private property where he can do whatever he wants.
It's a public place and Christer is responsible for its content. Example? If there was childporn linked in the downolads section the site would be burned down by the guys who take away our taxpaxers money.
Secondly, some people from countries other than the central, certral european ones have a diffrent background regarding to freedom of speech.
Well let me just explain that nobody is allowed to say "in my oppinion, the Holocaust never happened". That is, because the Holocaust is something for a fact, its real. YOu can have an oppinion about wether Nessy the Loch nesss monster exists or not - but not about a proven fact.
So if you say something like that in Germany in public, you are in trouble, serious trouble. Your Employer could fire you without any additional reason, and if you don't manage to distance yourself from that pretty fast and convincingly, you will end up in jail - and thats a good thing.
Just hold on a moment and ask yourself what media power can do.
If you allow people to promote such lies, you not only disgrace the victims, you also take a big risk for society. Demagogy is just to easy.
About the question of drawing the line here on FUMBBL, don't be ridicoluos.
It's a plain simple easy to follow rule that you are not allowed to use Names for your stuff that is associated with popular figures from the Nazi regime.
The comparison to the IRA thing is flawed, because there is no comparison to the Nazi thing.
You can't just say Hitler = responsible for the Deaths of People, Stalin = responsible for the death of people, Bin Laden = responsible for the death of people = same thing.
Thats the specific problem here.
I'm sorry i don't have the language skills to explain the unice characteristics of the Nazi thing that isolates it from any other evil thing that ever happened in the World and puts it in its verry own league, where not the word crime nor terror fit.
A IRA murderer is a murderer, he killed a person, he has emotions about the person he hated him or he was angry at him or he wanted to take political advantage of his death.
So an IRA murderer is just something in between criminal, murderer, terrorists, asshole, you name it.
The nazis were not murdering people. They were extinguishing vermin, they did not recognise their victims as human beeings, they managed to come up with a frame of mind, a strange shield. They industrialized killing, they build factories that were designed to deal with human waste, they defaced their victims its just unspeakable. And none of them was a murderer as such, since they didn't kill humans or people as far as they were concerned. They took every efford to shield the ordinary people from these things since their sympathy might blind them for the need to do this and the greater good that was accomplished by that. Its totally akward and twisted what happened back then.
You know throwing the atom bomb at japan was just a bomb, even if it was the most horrible bomb. The bomb just killed everybody in its way and the only thing intended was to kill a lot of people. But the attempt to exterminate a whole people based on a attempt to better the human race by removing low class material from its gene pool, and actually go through with this idea, making it the top priority of all efforts even while beeing at war with all of your neighbourning states, this kind of thing just surpasses imagination.
ok i think thats all i had to say and i guess i'll leave it at that. |
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ozjesting
Joined: Jan 27, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 17:45 |
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What about "Satan"? |
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Hammerhiem
Joined: Sep 07, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 17:51 |
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Problem is BigMac is that I personally know someone killed by the IRA, It's very personnal for me.
Where as you only have to deal with the Nazi murders in a very abstract way, it happened 50 years ago and is Part of history if you will. Meaning you should be able to step back and accept that it is part of hstory and not an issue right now(As in that you are not going to worry about being picked up by the Nazi's on your way to work tomorrow.)
The IRA where at the time of my objections still in a armed struggle against my Country (which means me since i'm military.)
Thankfully this has changed in the last month.
If i have to eat humble pie and allow IRA names i fail to see why you shouldn't with reference to Nazi's.
| Quote: | | What about "Satan" |
Mythical figure no more objectionable than "Dracula" or "Vlad Dracula" |
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arghh bumflaps , another fumble. Why can't these Gobbo's just pick the ball up? |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 23, 2005 - 17:55 |
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| Quote: | | It's a public place and Christer is responsible for its content. |
I've been saying that for years now...
| Quote: | A IRA murderer ... has emotions about the person...
The nazis ... did not recognise their victims as human beeings... |
So which is a greater crime? Killing a person or robbing a person of their humanity and then killing off thing that's left?
If you didn't get the point he was trying to get across, perhaps that question will help.
If anyone starts taking any of those (admittedly troll-bait) quotes out of context, this whole thing gets locked so fast your head will spin. |
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ozjesting
Joined: Jan 27, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 18:06 |
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"Your mind is like a parachute, it only works if it's open."...and has been dropped from a great height!
 Sorry...off topic...but everytime i see your sig I want that added on. My other favourite joke in this vein..."If you always keep an open mind, some people will just throw trash in there!"
But back to topic...so far we have been mostly discussing peoples names...but as an approver I see many things that could fall into this realm. There are a HEAP of teams whose players are named after killer diseases. Surely if one has lost a dear friend to cancer he may be offended if suddenly he is being blitzed by "Cancer" who is getting an assist from "AIDs" and "Ebola" THESE have caused more death and destruction then all your tyrants put together!
But enough really...as one wise poster suggested...I myself am more offended (in a sense) bythe lack of imagination and clear lack of time put into naming players then anything else. And FFS people...QUIT using elvish name generators! |
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Renegade
Joined: Dec 17, 2003
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Aug 23, 2005 - 18:25 |
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My expertly named undead side
10 Inch Bone were tampered with.
I'm still convinced the admin who perpertrated the deed was jealous... |
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Superstar
Joined: Sep 28, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 19:01 |
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Well, playing a IRA theme team isn't really offensiv, it's just creative. IMHO! i got a team named after different kind of beers, and alcohol cause alot of unhappyness and social problems world wide. Not to mention domestic violence which brings us to the word "bitch".. wait.. i lost the point... nm
last of all, about "bitches" and "hoes" Get some f*cking respect guys! |
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Hammerhiem
Joined: Sep 07, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 19:07 |
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| Quote: |
IRA theme team isn't really offensive,
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Say that after they murder a friend of yours. These people are cold blooded Murderers and Criminals, in our lifetime against Innocent people for the most part (though in truth my Friend was Military so not really innocent in thier eyes)
just as a straw poll, would everyone look at http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team&op=view&team_id=191189 that team and ask themselves if they would be comfortble with it.
It's only an example team to illustrate a point i'm not going to put it up for approval. |
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arghh bumflaps , another fumble. Why can't these Gobbo's just pick the ball up? |
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Gran
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
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Aug 23, 2005 - 20:27 |
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There has been much talk about freedom of speech contra censorship, but I must say I feel that is missing the point, because we can't have absolutes now, can we. Either it's only Lineman1 or we'll have to allow Neo-Nazi P***y-f**kers as a valid name, and I feel that neither of those feels very tempting. And, since this is a closed gaming-site were you have to apply for membership (in a fashion) there is nothing wrong with having a set of rules. So it really up to those in charge to ask themselves: What do we feel we can stand for? What is OK for us? And then they should draw the line were they feel it's appropriate.
Hammerhiem: Point taken.
| ozjesting wrote: | | What about "Satan"? |
He's a decent hockey player, so what?  |
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Today Is A Good Day For Someone Else To Die!
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BigMac
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 20:39 |
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Are you kidding me? He's an amazing hockey player!  |
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Gran
Joined: Jul 07, 2005
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Aug 23, 2005 - 20:45 |
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| BigMac wrote: | | Are you kidding me? He's an amazing hockey player! |
Ah, okey then, he's amazing... But he sure ain't no Forsberg! |
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The trouble is that things *never* get better, they just stay the same, only more so.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Eric)
Today Is A Good Day For Someone Else To Die!
-- (Terry Pratchett, Feet of Clay) |
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HollowOne
Joined: Sep 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 23, 2005 - 21:07 |
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| BigMac wrote: | First of all this is not Christers private property where he can do whatever he wants.
It's a public place and Christer is responsible for its content. Example? If there was childporn linked in the downolads section the site would be burned down by the guys who take away our taxpaxers money. |
Still wrong; it is Christer's private property. But he's STILL responsible for its content. Last I checked, child porn wasn't okay even if you just collected it in your basement. Some things are illegal even on private property.
| Quote: | | Secondly, some people from countries other than the central, certral european ones have a diffrent background regarding to freedom of speech. |
Uh huh. Yeah, universal human rights like freedom of thought and speech obviously don't apply in "central, certral european" [sic] countries.
| Quote: | | Well let me just explain that nobody is allowed to say "in my oppinion, the Holocaust never happened". That is, because the Holocaust is something for a fact, its real. YOu can have an oppinion about wether Nessy the Loch nesss monster exists or not - but not about a proven fact. |
What, so I'm not allowed to make statements like "the moon is made of green cheese"?
You really don't understand what you are saying; freedom of speech and thought are bedrock values of democracy. Once it becomes illegal to question state-sponsored "truth", those core values are undermined and democracy is endangered. That's how the Nazis rose to power and the Holocaust came out in the first place -- the state-sponsored truth of "Jews are less than human" could not be questioned.
It is necessary and good for authority to be questioned in a healthy democracy. That includes questioning facts, even if such questions are as unpalatable as "Did the Holocaust really occur?". Once we stop questioning facts and simply accept the statements of those in authority, we're not preventing the mistakes of the past -- we're repeating them.
| Quote: | | So if you say something like that in Germany in public, you are in trouble, serious trouble. Your Employer could fire you without any additional reason, and if you don't manage to distance yourself from that pretty fast and convincingly, you will end up in jail - and thats a good thing. |
No it isn't. It's pretty stupid. By all means, smash the arguments of Holocaust deniers; ridicule them; insult them; tell them to shut up, if you want. But the moment you FORCE them to shut up, you are no better than the fascists were.
I understand why, in the circumstances, German law is as it is; they're trying to distance themselves from their past. But two wrongs don't make a right.
| Quote: |
Just hold on a moment and ask yourself what media power can do.
If you allow people to promote such lies, you not only disgrace the victims, you also take a big risk for society. Demagogy is just to easy. |
You don't understand the nature of media; free media are a necessary part of democracy. Once you start imposing state-sanctioned rules on the media, you start undermining its value to democracy; rules like "don't question <X>". State-controlled or -influenced media are tools of authoritarian governments. So I don't find the fact that the media are forced to be silent on a given topic particularly reassuring, either.
I pray you will come to realise that the respect of basic human rights must be universal, and can not be contravened simply because it is inconvenient to the truth. However, as you advocate violence as a means of censorship, I don't hold high hopes. |
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Buur
Joined: Apr 29, 2004
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Aug 23, 2005 - 21:24 |
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Say that after they murder a friend of yours.
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one could argue that the IRA is a group of freedomfighters figthing to get control over their ocupied country, and therefore are heroes?
and that your friend should have stopped and standed still when they yelled "armed police stop or we shoot!"
or what ever happend.... yes i know that hars... but i seem to get upset that you think thats bad but a brassilian that looked asian is responsebly for his own death becurse he was stuppid and ran.
-Buur |
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For most people, reason is nothing but their own believes. |
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Mezir
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Aug 23, 2005 - 21:29 |
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| Buur wrote: | one could argue that the IRA is a group of freedomfighters figthing to get control over their ocupied country, and therefore are heroes?
and that your friend should have stopped and standed still when they yelled "armed police stop or we shoot!" |
Indeed one could argue that jews are vermin and therefore deserve to be exterminated.
So if your post was meant to illustrate a difference between the IRA and Nazism...
To the people affected by the IRA, your argument could easily sound like mine, which i'm sure you'll agree is horrendous in the extreme. |
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Last edited by Mezir on %b %23, %2005 - %21:%Aug; edited 1 time in total |
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