CorporateSlave3
Joined: Feb 07, 2004
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 Posted:
Jul 09, 2009 - 03:21 |
 
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PainState: Well, I was just trying to illustrate an apparent contradiction. I personally would have absolutely no problem if a couple of tournament winning B teams had some non-standard player on their roster.
Indeed, I find the concept of strict LRB adherence to be rather silly, given all the 'differences from game' that simply using the client causes. Using the black box scheduler at all goes against the LRB, which pretty clearly spells out the procedure for open play and tournaments. The LRB spells out Challenges for Major tournament qualifying to avoid other teams excluding powerful teams from getting the games they need to qualify, etc.
These don't exist in R...and in fact talk of implementing these "LRB Official" rules would bring out a great hue and cry from the throngs of R who would see it taking away their precious ability to choose matches! Fumbbl is not the LRB. They have many things in common, gameplay is based on the LRB and often try to stick to it as close as possible in certain divisions, but even the LRB divisions don't shy away from tournament structure and prizes that do not appear in the LRB. The novelty prizes for the Fumbbl Majors is part of what makes them so appealing.
However, I'm not really that concerned with coming up with a convincing counter-argument for one person who doesn't like an idea for such a small reason. (TheCetusProject - I' wasn't saying there is anything wrong with you not wanting to play such a prize-holding team (everybody is entitled to their opinion)...I was just pointing out that I'm confused because your second point would bring about just the thing you first state that you desperately want to avoid happening...it made it hard for me to figure out exactly what you were proposing. Do you want B teams in R tournaments? Do you want to change R tournaments to avoid these dreaded non-LRB prizes? Do you want the prizes stripped from a victorious B team? B teams eligible to play and win but not win the prize? Even after reading your clarification post I'm not sure what you want...other than someone else to spend 2-3 seconds coming up with some other solution?)
Anyway, that theoretical Beast of Nurgle on a dwarf team would be calculated into TR/TS just like any other player, perhaps even with a 'Tournament Prize TS Bonus' due to the non-standard nature of the player, sort of how DP gives a hefty TS boost. I know this won't affect the individual (s?) who want strict LRB adherence (in an online community using a client that cannot fully comply with the LRB rule set anyway), but hopefully it will reassure other coaches that they won't be facing a B team with some unfair advantage due to winning a tournament! Sure, it will have a "non LRB" advantage, but it will get calculated into the TS for match up purposes like anything else. |
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CorporateSlave3
Joined: Feb 07, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 09, 2009 - 03:59 |
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Here is another tournament concept for BlackBox:
The Bright Crusader’s Cup
The Bright Crusaders have been a mainstay of the Blood Bowl tabloids for many years. Always standing out as, perhaps the last, bastion of dignity, honor, and fairness on the Blood Bowl pitch. Indeed, their sterling reputation as the most honest, fair, and honorable team to ever play the sport has been their only consolation in the face of a truly hideous losing record, season after season.
They have stalwartly stood against miserably cheating goblins sneaking all manner of weapons onto the pitch, treacherous dark elves using every dirty trick in the book, even sneaky hobgoblins furtively clustering around downed players when the referee wasn’t looking, seeking to put a hard kick or two into their helpless opponent’s body…all the while refusing to respond in kind. Refusing to break their unique code of honor! Never once called on a foul! Never once called for Illegal Procedure! Never once bribing a referee! (And only once winning a match – by default when the opposing troll ate an entire team of goblins right before kickoff!)
One day, the Bright Crusader’s team captain heard of a magical new device being used in some leagues to assist in matching teams up with opponents of similar ability in order to promote the most exciting matches possible. With this magical ‘black box’ a team could enter its name and roster, and the box would instantly calculate which team would best equal another similarly submitted team in ability and prowess, matching them for a game that was certain to please the fans!
It gave the captain an idea. Perhaps there was no way to ever enforce their code upon the throngs of cheating Blood Bowl teams, all willing to do anything to win. But now, it was within their grasp to at least ensure that teams would meet each other on a level playing field – even if that field was laden with traps, magic, and weapons that were clearly forbidden by the Law of Nuffle. At least the days of the Chaos All Stars constantly baiting newly franchised human teams with a thin roster, and few players with more than a hair or two on their chin into a match that inevitably ended in slaughter would be over.
He organized his men, and together they launched the Bright Crusader’s Cup. The black box would be used to ensure that every round of the tournament would be as fair as magically possible…and when the champions would eventually be crowned, the Bright Crusader’s team captain himself would join them for the coming season, to honor those who had won the most fair and square tournament he could figure out how to offer, after which he would retire forever from Blood Bowl and dedicate his life (if he still had one) to becoming the best referee he possibly could.
Tournament structure:
Open KO format tournament, with no qualifying rounds – however, teams must be ‘active’ – they must have played at least one (or two?) match in the week preceding the initial seeding. The Bright Crusaders view hiding out with a team right up until entry (in order to protect the team’s roster) ‘unsportsmanlike’ and will deny any such teams entry if at all possible.
Any TR/TS is allowed to enter, although teams will be knocked off the bottom of the TR/TS scale in order to make an even number compatible with a KO format bracket (hopefully this will help avoid too mismatched a final). Teams will be checked for the active requirement BEFORE any teams are eliminated due to the needs of the KO bracket.
The initial draw will be made using by feeding all teams into the black box scheduler, which will make the best TR/TS matches it can.
Every round thereafter will be determined after the round before it is completed by again entering all teams that remain into the black box scheduler, as opposed to proceeding down a traditional KO tournament bracket.
Standard timeframes of 1 week per round to play scheduled matches will apply.
Only the final will be arranged without use of the black box.
Tournament Prizes:
The prize will be +2d6 K winnings, +d6 FF, and a Bright Crusader Team Captain added to the team roster until killed, retired, or the tournament begins the following year.
The Bright Crusader Team Captain will have the following stats and skills:
6 4 3 8 Stand Firm, Leader (I’ll leave it to someone else competent in such things to give me a fair price/team strength value)
This player can gain SPP’s a normal, and can also be killed, injured, and age per the current ruleset. His stats are reset for the next Bright Crusader’s Cup, as he is determined to have retired (if he was alive) and another member of the Bright Crusaders will have been elected captain to replace him. |
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***Did you know? 42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot? |
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Snappy_Dresser
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 09, 2009 - 07:59 |
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still not a fan of "weird" prizes (a trophy with my name on it and a little glory is plenty), but I'd play that. |
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<PurpleChest> the way it splooshed got me so excited
"I hear that shadow is a douchebag"
-Mr Foulscumm |
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Pjj
Joined: Oct 09, 2008
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| Posted:
Jul 09, 2009 - 08:13 |
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| CorporateSlave3 wrote: | | Pjj wrote: | Though I think the ever-changing mutations as prizes aren't that practical. I like the idea of mutations and one negative trait as prizes, but I would make them permanent (and not include OFAB, without thralls it's extra extra terrible).
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Do you mean it wouldn't be practical from a coding standpoint, or a playability standpoint? Random mutations that change every match worked well logistically on every Fumbbl B-day that's had them. |
I didn't mean coding so much as permanently attaching them to the team and not players. They should eventually be lost through attrition.
OFAB would be awesome if you gave thrall to all the other players. I guess it would just be more involved.
I guess the problem with giving out a permanent negative trait is that the player will probably just be retired right away.
Edit: though maybe the negative trait could be combined with a large drop in that player's TS, and maybe also guarantee that the negative trait player gets one of the mutations. |
Last edited by Pjj on %b %09, %2009 - %08:%Jul; edited 1 time in total |
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Pjj
Joined: Oct 09, 2008
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| Posted:
Jul 09, 2009 - 08:30 |
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I like your Crusader's Cup idea as well. Though I dunno about resetting him for the next year, a year should be long enough that he gets retired naturally before the next tourney. I guess for the fluff you could rename him from captain to champion or something. Or leave it as just Bright Crusader.
And in regard to people who don't like exotic prizes/players, we should implement bonuses for injuring said players.
Maybe if you get an exotic player in the injury box (no apoth/regen) you get a bonus point to your fan factor. I doubt it would be abused as the winner isn't likely to risk serious injury to his prize (and also since it would only be possible to do it once per match), and it would strongly encourage people to foul prizes to death as soon as possible. (I think it'd be cooler to give prize specific bonuses, like maybe if you kill one of the mutations from your Corporate Slave's Tzeentch idea the player who struck the killing blow gets a random mutation after the game, but a fan factor seems like the most non-controversial)
Also the other concern now is that since the box has changed to preferred activate, it is kind of possible to put shelter teams with special players. To avoid that maybe while any team has an exotic player on it, they must be activated every time you draw until all exotic players are retired/killed. |
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TheCetusProject
Joined: May 25, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 09, 2009 - 10:36 |
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I actually also agree about the strangeness of the sometimes fanatical adherence to the LRB even when the tournaments in R are completely non-LRB in every respect. I like consistency, and if we're going to claim that we follow the LRB in the LRB divisions then we'd better remove all these non-LRB tournaments right now! And since this isn't going to happen, the documentation should be amended to say that we strive for a pure LRB experience except when we don't want to. And that would as a happy consequence stop the "it's not the in LRB" objections to ideas that are unambiguously superior to current practice.
It is really easy though to think up good ways of stopping B teams from polluting B with silly prizes. The simplest solution is to prevent B teams from winning the silly prizes. Probably people will whine about this, even though nobody is ever going to win a major with a B team anyway, so you can just give a different prize to B winners, that is non-LRB in terms of team development but not in personnel. For example you could allow them to resurrect or heal some players, or boost some players up to their next skill, etc. Basically the prize should be such that, if you didn't know they'd won the tournament, you wouldn't be able to tell they'd received a prize. |
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Koigokoro
Joined: Sep 29, 2005
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| Posted:
Jul 09, 2009 - 10:44 |
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| Pjj wrote: | | Edit: though maybe the negative trait could be combined with a large drop in that player's TS, and maybe also guarantee that the negative trait player gets one of the mutations. |
Maybe to a curse of some sort. Really stupid, regen and tentacles or Wild Animal, Horns and Claw or something. Vampirism curse go along the same line.
Just a thought from what Pjj said.
Ruining a winners player by random isn't the way to go in my opinion though. |
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Molt
Joined: Aug 04, 2003
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Jul 09, 2009 - 15:04 |
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I like Corporate slave's idea that a team would be required to have played before the tournament eg at least 3 games in the two weeks before. It could however make it harder to make TS/TR requirements
I think that novelty players etc add a bit of spice and should definitely be awarded to the winner. As long as the player gives a premium in terms of the TR and TS it adds to the team I don't see a problem. It would be kind of sad for a team with such a player to just be rested between tourneys - so i like the idea of enforced entry to the box for a team with such a player. even if they had AV9 and regen they probably couldn't survive a year in the box  I like the reward from the grotty little tournament - any player from any roster under 70k. The max value of the player makes it impossible to totally imbalance a team like having a dwarf team with a beast of nurgle does.
I don't think bonuses for killing him should be implemented though - totally unnecessary as we're all going to take a pop at trying to kill him anyway... out of jealousy  |
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On1
Joined: Jul 12, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 09, 2009 - 16:51 |
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[quote="PainState"]| Quote: | | Lets say you did win a BoN on a Box team, now with the current box system you could not "hide" that team. |
Actually you could hide that team with the current box system. When activating your teams, you can select exactly which teams and how many you want to activate.
(however i used the same argument as you, before this was implemented int the box.) |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 09, 2009 - 20:04 |
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| CorporateSlave3 wrote: |
The initial draw will be made using by feeding all teams into the black box scheduler, which will make the best TR/TS matches it can.
Every round thereafter will be determined after the round before it is completed by again entering all teams that remain into the black box scheduler, as opposed to proceeding down a traditional KO tournament bracket.
Standard timeframes of 1 week per round to play scheduled matches will apply.
Only the final will be arranged without use of the black box.
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I think that is a great idea on how to run a Box tourney.
Back to my orginal post related to the first post.
IF Purple Chest is going to put the effort into making a tourney I say go with this idea on the format.
1)It sticks to the concept behind the box
2)It is a weekly format
3)There is finally a Box Tourney.
Now I see some problems that could arise but Iam not going to go on and on about them because in the end it is about getting the first tourney up and running and then start knocking the kinks out of the system once they start to show up, as they will.
The Fluff and prize about a tourney are nice to discuss and banter about but in the end its the first step that Iam sure Purple Chest is worried about and that is the structure of the Tournament and then once that is figured out then move on to the fluff and prizes that go along with it.
I would say for the first tournament just keep it simple. Winner gets +5 FF and 100,000 Gold.
All the restrictions about having to play said amount of games and putting restrictions should be left out.
Announce the tourney, Apply your teams and lets see what happens.
You might be suprised how many coaches on the fringe of the Box will throw a team in just to say they took part.
Now for me I would join BUT when ever it comes to any structured tournament its about time for me and not desire. As a North American player I usually have to bend over backwards to play in these things, I have yet to play a North American player in any tournament I have played, 11 Euros and a Aussie. Needless to say my Blood Bowl skills diminish at 4AM on a Saturday morning to get in a game. |
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On1
Joined: Jul 12, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 09, 2009 - 22:18 |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| Posted:
Jul 09, 2009 - 22:31 |
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| On1 wrote: | | You sound so limber. |
mmmm thanks? |
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CorporateSlave3
Joined: Feb 07, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 10, 2009 - 01:56 |
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So it sounds to me like most of the comments have liked the format, but some have been uneasy about the prizes.
Well, at the end of the day, the prizes are just part of fluffiness and certainly subject to change.
Maybe an initial tournament using the structure I've described, simply called "The 1st Annual Black Box Major Tournament" and with a standard prize such as the +5FF and 100K gold as PainState mentioned should be run, just to get a B tourney underway and see how it plays out? There certainly isn't anything that would preclude adding other prizes down the line, even renaming the tournament to the Fum-B-B-l Cup or whatever, if the format works well enough to run more tourneys in B.
Perhaps a new thread with a poll is in order... |
_________________
***Did you know? 42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot? |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jul 10, 2009 - 11:27 |
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I would prefer, if a coach had to submit three or more teams to the tourney and then the coaches would play in a KO style tourney and their teams would be scheduled by the bot.
So each round all teams would be submitted and the best matchups would be played. Whoever loses, gets knocked out. Next round all remaining coaches are again paired up new.
For the final, teams are matched that they are as close as possible. If there are multiple equally good matchups, then the finalist that had a tougher schedule (TS difference wise) can pick. |
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On1
Joined: Jul 12, 2004
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| Posted:
Jul 10, 2009 - 19:19 |
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| PainState wrote: | | On1 wrote: | | You sound so limber. |
mmmm thanks? |
"I usually have to bend over backwards" |
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