FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

Joined: Sep 20, 2015

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 06:33

Does anyone know why the team with the higher TV would get more special play cards? Seems odd to me. They feel like they should act more like inducements but I guess the argument could be made that the cards belong with the higher ranked team since they could make more "special plays."

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thoralf

Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 06:54

Beanchilla wrote:

Does anyone know why the team with the higher TV would get more special play cards?

This may be based on page 25 of the Rulz Book, coaches roll to see if they get 1, 2, or 3 cards each. But that way of playing with the cards does not apply to league teams like the ones we have here.

This may also be a misreading of the rulz:

Quote:

consult the chart below to see how many cards are drawn and kept based on the highest [TV] out of the two teams.

This only means that when one of the teams have (say) 3000+ TV, both coaches draw 5 cards and keep 4. The number of cards taken by both coaches are the same, but vary according to the TV of the highest team.

This chart indicates that GW seems to allow the possibility of having 3000 TV teams.

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Last edited by thoralf on %b %30, %2016 - %06:%Nov; edited 1 time in total

JimmyFantastic

Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 06:56

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

in the new rules which do not have a petty cash phase, can simply transfer from treasury in pre-match to buy inducements without adding the cost to their TV.

Guess BB2 isn't getting fixed then eh?
This is the worst rule change of the lot by far. Surprised ppl haven't mentioned it much!

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Beanchilla

Joined: Sep 20, 2015

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 07:45

thoralf wrote:

Beanchilla wrote:

Does anyone know why the team with the higher TV would get more special play cards?

This may be based on page 25 of the Rulz Book, coaches roll to see if they get 1, 2, or 3 cards each. But that way of playing with the cards does not apply to league teams like the ones we have here.

This may also be a misreading of the rulz:

Quote:

consult the chart below to see how many cards are drawn and kept based on the highest [TV] out of the two teams.

This only means that when one of the teams have (say) 3000+ TV, both coaches draw 5 cards and keep 4. The number of cards taken by both coaches are the same, but vary according to the TV of the highest team.

This chart indicates that GW seems to allow the possibility of having 3000 TV teams.

Thanks Thoralf. The idea of both drawing that many makes more sense.

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Purplegoo

Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 09:28

JimmyFantastic wrote:

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

in the new rules which do not have a petty cash phase, can simply transfer from treasury in pre-match to buy inducements without adding the cost to their TV.

Guess BB2 isn't getting fixed then eh?
This is the worst rule change of the lot by far. Surprised ppl haven't mentioned it much!

Depends how inducements end up. If the Wizard as we know it never arrives and all of the stars are really expensive, is it so bad?

Anyway, if we're talking 'worst' (I mean, talking in extreme language), if the card mechanic sticks, BB is significantly, fundamentally changed. I would say for the worse, but I like the strategic aspect of the game and it being about coaching. There are a few good reasons (rule wording, external chatter) to think we won't see them in main FUMBBL divisions / tournaments anywhere. I hope those reasons win out and we end up with slightly tweaked CRP (and in the main, not much of significance has changed), rather than crazy card bingo.

JimmyFantastic

Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 13:08

Purplegoo wrote:

JimmyFantastic wrote:

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:

in the new rules which do not have a petty cash phase, can simply transfer from treasury in pre-match to buy inducements without adding the cost to their TV.

Guess BB2 isn't getting fixed then eh?
This is the worst rule change of the lot by far. Surprised ppl haven't mentioned it much!

Depends how inducements end up. If the Wizard as we know it never arrives and all of the stars are really expensive, is it so bad?

Anyway, if we're talking 'worst' (I mean, talking in extreme language), if the card mechanic sticks, BB is significantly, fundamentally changed. I would say for the worse, but I like the strategic aspect of the game and it being about coaching. There are a few good reasons (rule wording, external chatter) to think we won't see them in main FUMBBL divisions / tournaments anywhere. I hope those reasons win out and we end up with slightly tweaked CRP (and in the main, not much of significance has changed), rather than crazy card bingo.

Sure the card change is bad in your opinion. The piling on and MVP changes are also only good or bad in someone's opinion.
Very little of the new ruleset is objectively bad, but the inducement phase is clearly so.

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Purplegoo

Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 13:27

I guess what I was trying to say is that PO / MVP / inducements are changes that are objectively good or bad depending on your view, but they only have a limited impact on 'what Blood Bowl is'. They're tweaks that don't affect the mechanics of the game we play when the players cross the white line (in two of three cases, in the third case, a skill is no longer there, so it's a global, known effect). The proposed card system, I think, is a more fundamental change than that and has a direct impact on what sort of game BB is, every game in game. You might like that, you might not, but I think it's tough to argue that it's not the most extreme change, if adopted.

You could put a loose numerical guesstimate on the skill / luck ratio in determining the outcome of a CRP game of BB. I don't know what that would be, let's guess it's 80 / 20 for the sake of argument. If this mechanic comes in, that 80 plummets and the 20 rockets. Inducements might annoy you, but they won't have the same, significant impact on every game.

Hopefully it's all needless worry anyway. I agree with you that the inducement thing is a change for the worse. I guess what I'm saying is that you 'only have so many arrows', so to speak, so you may as well examine (criticise, in this case) the biggest thing.

JimmyFantastic

Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 14:51

It's really really easy to ignore the cards though. I'm sure NAF tourneys will for example.
Can't ignore the fact that you can get matched with a 120TV disadvantage then the oppo buys Griff on top of that and you get nothing. This is the absolute opposite of what inducements were designed for.

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thoralf

Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 14:53

Purplegoo wrote:

PO / MVP / inducements are changes that are objectively good or bad depending on your view, but they only have a limited impact on 'what Blood Bowl is'. [...] The proposed card system, I think, is a more fundamental change than that and has a direct impact on what sort of game BB is, every game in game.

Blood Bowl cards are part of all the versions I played on tabletop, and to me playing with no cards is not "what Blood Bowl is." Everyone is free to dislike cards, but appealing to the essence of BB looks shaky, unless by essence we mean the basic rulz.

Looking around, I now know why I had the impression of having seen many these cards before, for instance:

Quote:

Cards no longer on the list from 3rd edition are:
Dirty Trick: Bribe the Ref #1, Exploding Player, High Punt, I'll Get You, Kidnap Rival Coach, Mine, Sorry, Sorry Sir!, Stink Bomb
Magic Item: Healing Scroll, Magic Pills, Magic Potion, and Unseen Shield
Random Events: Bankruptcy!, Inspired Play, Is it a TD?

Bankruptcy! has never been good to me, though.

Instead of pushing for a total card boycott (or worse "let's stick to CRP for *real* BB competitions"), it might be better to let Kommissars decide which cards to implement.

I already found one use for the cards - handicap games. If I was to introduce new players to the TT game, I'd pick Random Events and let my guest pick Mayhems.

***

As an aside, if GW could refer to the NAF on its website as the official international entity, that'd be nice.

Nuffle created BB, and then the NAF to rest a bit.

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Purplegoo

Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 15:03

JimmyFantastic wrote:

It's really really easy to ignore the cards though. I'm sure NAF tourneys will for example.
Can't ignore the fact that you can get matched with a 120TV disadvantage then the oppo buys Griff on top of that and you get nothing. This is the absolute opposite of what inducements were designed for.

True. I think most people (including NAF / FUMBBL) ignoring cards is the most likely (in spite of what our resident confuser - or Konfuzar, or whatever - might come up with) outcome, whereas it's harder to get around an undesirable inducement mechanic. That's a more integral part of the rules (rulz, or whatever makes it more difficult to understand).

thoralf

Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 15:10

Goo wrote:

it's harder to get around an undesirable inducement mechanic.

Explaining how this mechanic is undesirable might be preferable in this thread, more so that the Jimmy may have Cyanide in mind. If this undesirability follows from an objective argument, that'd be great.

For the cheap politics and the divinations about what is more likely or not, it's right next door.

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plasmoid

Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 16:45

Hi Jimmy,
I've been raising that very point here:
http://www.talkfantasyfootball.org/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=43412

So far all I'm getting told is that because there is now a greater need for Cash, then choosing to use your Cash to get a big in-game advantage like that is just fine and dandy.
IMO, it isn't fine and dandy for the guy getting shafted.
As you say, it is the opposite of what the inducement system is supposed to do Sad

Cheers
Martin

JimmyFantastic

Joined: Feb 06, 2007

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 17:11

Yup. Outrageous. Also the fact that Expensive Mistakes is so punishing over 300k completely counters this point.

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Purplegoo

Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 17:36

How many arguments do Jimmy, Plasmoid and I find ourselves on the same side of?

Accepting free, no strings money, enjoying oxygen and thinking this inducement rule isn't the best. I couldn't think of more than three. Wink

licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Nov 30, 2016 - 17:40

The cyanide inducements (though capped at 150k in terms of 'free advantage') and this new BB2016 system is just totally bonkers.

It's a pure change to the game mechanics, where now teams can (almost) literally buy their way to wins (or at least huge in game advantages).

Now, maybe the inducement list will be full of worthless crap, but then what would be the point of having extra cash anyway?

I'm also in agreement with goo about the effect the card system will have. But I understand that there is more than one way for people to enjoy this game (as does goo). It's sad to me that direction GW seem to be moving towards is one of more random mayhem where coaching skill matters less and less.

At least they didn't mention TV+...

yet...