| Poll |
| What do you think of CR in Ranked? |
| I love it, shows how good a coach I am! |
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10% |
[ 29 ] |
| I like it, but its open to cherrypicking |
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29% |
[ 81 ] |
| I dont pay much attention to it |
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36% |
[ 99 ] |
| I dont play in ranked because of it! |
|
9% |
[ 25 ] |
| Other reason |
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5% |
[ 14 ] |
| more flowers! |
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9% |
[ 25 ] |
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| Total Votes : 273 |
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Flix
Joined: Oct 26, 2003
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 Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 09:50 |
 
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i would like to add some thinks
- you are free to disable your CoachRating
- i think the formular change was good change
I got high CR and mostly got my CR out of Tournaments cause i dont play much open ranked games
i also think it is easy to get some cr with some cheerypicking but you need to play many games.
i like the that the minor tournaments get very popular like Royal Rookie Rumble and Fumbbl Smack very many of them were play there and you can get an lose many ranking points and cheerypicking is not posible |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 10:05 |
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Why worry? If you don't like a match up don't accept it.
Maybe the CR formula needs tweaking. Maybe you should get something even if you lose to a much stronger coach/team. Maybe you should get nothing if you fail to beat a much weaker coach/team by more that one TD for example.
If the teams are fairly even why should you complain at all at player a better coach? It is a chance to test yourself.
If you don't like CR then don't worry about it.
Many coaches are only in ranked because it is quick and easy to get a game. I usually accept the first game offered. Am I screwing up the system by allowing myself to be cherrypicked? On the other hand I have won my last three ranked games but lost the last three unranked. So, I am still rubbish but my CR is going up.  |
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SideshowBob
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 10:16 |
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I must add that I pretty much like the ranking system as it is.
The guys in the top of the ranking have done well in several tourneys, and therefore they have a high CR. I suppose it is easy to cherrypick up to 170 maybe, but most of the coaches above that has earned their points in tourneys.
One cool thing would be if some of the bigger (national?) leagues/cups on Fumbbl (SWL, Swedish League, Blutballas etc) would affect the CR in some way. Maybe the winners get a couple of CR points depending of the status of the league/cup. I guess this is really hard to implement, but I just think that it would be cool.
And remember to eat a waffle today! |
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Mr_Launcher
Joined: Dec 27, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 11:30 |
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| Zug wrote: | | The most common way to "cherry-pick" as you guys call it hasn't really been mentioned: it is to try to play overrated opponents and avoid playing underrated opponents. |
But the only ones who end up being overrated are the cherrypickers. So if I'm a cherrypicker, the only way for me to cherrypick my CR up would be to play other cherrypickers.
| Zug wrote: | | This is very easy to do in BB since you can also factor in race - if your team is bad against Orcs, don't play coaches with a low CR and an Orc team. If your team is great against Wood Elves, look for high CR WE teams. |
Yes, that's the drawback of the CR system, which you cannot do much about, because the CR system doesn't know if a team is good or bad against wood elves, for example (OK, it could look at the match stats from previous matches against wood elves).
| Quote: | | Imagine if a Grandmaster could go play some guy who just learned how to play chess, beat the pants off him, and then go back to the World Chess Federation and say "Bump up my CR a few points, I just beat Joe Noobie from Chicago." |
In chess, there is no luck involved, so a grandmaster can beat a 100 newbies without problem. In BB, there is luck involved, so if BB coach beat 100 newbies, he probably is a good coach.
| SideshowBob wrote: | | And remember to eat a waffle today! |
That's for the reminder. Not that I will eat a waffle, but it's always nice to know which traditions you ignore. |
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angelface
Joined: Mar 23, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 12:45 |
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| Mr_Launcher wrote: | | In chess, there is no luck involved, so a grandmaster can beat a 100 newbies without problem. In BB, there is luck involved, so if BB coach beat 100 newbies, he probably is a good coach. |
So in chess, where is no luck factor, you beat 100 weaker opponents for granted, and in BB, where a strong luck factor exists, you can beat 100 opponents just because you are good. Bravo. |
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MickeX
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 13:46 |
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| angelface wrote: | | ...in BB, where a strong luck factor exists, you can beat 100 opponents just because you are good. Bravo. |
Even if you only played 7-year olds with badly built TR100 'zons using your TR130 dwarfs, a 100-0-0 result would be quite an accomplishment  |
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Meech
Joined: Sep 15, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 13:53 |
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Sideshowbob: I think (counting your mention) that having ranking only change in "official" fumbbl tournaments has been mentiond five times on this and other related threads. I see nothing wrong with the idea. People have a problem with RRR, then FINE, have it be Fumbbl Smack and Majors. |
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Putting the FU in fumbbl since 9/2005 |
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SnakeSanders
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 14:01 |
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what about my last suggestion?  |
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SideshowBob
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 14:04 |
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| Meech wrote: | | Sideshowbob: I think (counting your mention) that having ranking only change in "official" fumbbl tournaments has been mentiond five times on this and other related threads. I see nothing wrong with the idea. People have a problem with RRR, then FINE, have it be Fumbbl Smack and Majors. |
Yeah but I was AGAINST this idea. Since that will lead to even more power gaming Blood Falcons style to boost your team to the big tourneys where the games matter.
A few scenarios for the coaches who cares about CR then:
1. I write in my elf team bio: "Hey, I will never crowdpush, foul, stall or block your team. I will only collect as much cash and spp as possible and always score whenever I can" Do you think that coaches will play that evil dp ORC team or my team?
2. I receive a casualty early and use my apoth. Why should I now try to fight back when my players lie safe on the ground? I can just dodge away for the remainder of the game, collect my spp and cash and wait for the next elf bowl game.
Point being= if regular games in R only means building strong teamsand nothing else, I think we will see MUCH more cherry picking than today. Maybe not the "I will only play CR<145 coaches"-style but more the "I will only play elf, elf or elf and nothing but elf"-style. |
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Bloodoholic
Joined: Dec 26, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 14:14 |
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Love it!
shows how baaaad iam  |
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Smess
Joined: Feb 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 14:46 |
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I repeat my statement that CR is imperfect, BUT good enough. It's imperfect and never will be realy perfect I think, much like life. But just like life, it doesn't have to be.
It's imperfect, but it's good enough. It gives a rough idea of how good one is, but only rougly. Rougly is ok, because the best way to ever realy know is either to see him play on different occasions, or to play him (several times with different races if you want to be sure). Than you can add that information to his team records if you want, and decide if you think he is good or not.
I think this is what a lot (most?) people actually do, they don't just look at CR. So, why so much fuss about the number?
Also, I think it is an illusion that there is no cherrypicking possible in tourneys. There are always ways (won't elaborate on this), but it is probably harder.
Currently, the ranked tourneys have a very high impact on CR, which makes it harder to predict and manipulate. But you also still gain points if you win most of your games. 2 ways to increase your ranking seems more interesting to me than only one. Because as in the chess-arguement, it still is a game of chance and if you win most games it's likely that you know how to play (cherrypickers aside).
Yes two ways to increase your ranking definatly seems more fun to me than one.
And also, if CR only would be affected by tourneys, what's to stop anyone from stop entering tourneys after you won one, and just camp on high CR forever? At least now, after you won a tourney, you WILL go down in CR unless you stop playing in ranked. |
Last edited by Smess on %b %15, %2006 - %13:%Feb; edited 1 time in total |
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sk8bcn
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 14:52 |
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calling Circular a picker and showing that in his last 5 games, four where over 160 is just a joke an an evidence of a lack of experience on what the CR means. Whatever.
This discussion just goes into many direction now. Bashing and flaming high CR coach (silly IMO).
How to change the CR that people don't care about or does but do not like.
About this point I would like to add my vote to "bad idea" for the same reasons as SSB gave and because not everyone wants to play tournament (ps. I want).
win percentage and CR: for me, thinking that % winning is more accurate or more important than CR is a perception of almost ranked players only. I can win many games in ranked because I then play equal str, fair matchups and so on. Though, my win percentage is far from beeing great (around 50%). In this percentage, you must add my tournament games not at my advantages, fairly good opponents, stunty played tactical-less and so on.
Well I writte and just discover that I has nothing to say at all.
I mean the discuss went into so many directions that I don't know what I should comment or argue or agree |
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Adar
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 14:59 |
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Okay we got 188 answers to the poll and 15 people really got an issue with it while 0-10 other people might be against it. That means that even on a good day wil less than 10% of the people here on fumbbl be against the ranking. That is less than the expected outcome for the "I don't like pie" choice in a "Do you like pie" poll. |
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For all his rage, he's still just a rat in it's cage. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 17:00 |
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| CircularLogic wrote: | Pac:
Believe it or not - I think that equal TS teams have roughly equal chances for the win. It depends alot on skill combos, but an orc team that skilled the BOBs with block/guard and the blitzers with tackle/MB will have way more than 50% chances on your average elven team that is pretty blodge heavy.
In an equal TS-match, elves do NOT have automatically the upper hand against tough teams. |
I do find this to be a very strange argument: was I the only person who watched any fumbbl cup matches? In a one-off match, elves (most especially AV 7 elves) have the edge. Especially when they have a squad of (is it 14 your lot have, atm?).
And we all know how many flaws there are in the TS system: to take just one example, TS can represent a surplus of benchwarmers that a high AV team is unlikely to use, and who would contribute very little towards victory.
So what if some Tackle, MB Orcs do some damage? Even with 5 or 6 players left near the end of the second half (and it needn't really be so few) you know you'll have a very good chance to score if that includes a couple of Catchers. The damage impacts upon the <i>next</i> game: but with all your caveats, you'll never enjoy experiencing that challenge.
The very worst that is likely to happen to your team is a draw; a defeat would require a quite improbable succession of injury rolls. Now, if you were to play a steady succession of bashers - and still keep winning, even in the occasional absence of key players - you might prove a more notable point.
I'm always eager to see more elf-vs-basher games: I find a battle of opposites to be far more interesting than either elf-ball or slugfests. But, tbh, your set-up is rigged: it'd be nice to see a challenge that wasn't just Operation: Certain Retirement for your opposition.
| SideshowBob wrote: | | If I was to play in R today to boost my CR, I would happily play orcs with my elves, since I know that a good elf team wins vs orcs most of the time. So what if a few players gets hurt? I get the win ... |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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| Posted:
Jan 26, 2006 - 17:30 |
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Looking at the fumbbl-cup, you see that in most cases elfs had more TS or in the comments you see that they got really lucky.
I still believe, that if you play a hard cage, you can grind an elven opposition to a 2-1 victory if you play careful and don`t get srewed by the dice. You don`t need lots of cas - just some KO that give you a field superiority, which denies your opponent the ball.
The reason, why elfs win most of the times against orcs might be, that bahsers tend to play more up against elves and bashers tend to attract more inexperienced coaches as they are more forgiving. In an one-off, bashers are harder to play, because you cannot make lots of mistakes in a game. |
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