SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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 Posted:
May 26, 2008 - 16:52 |
 
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I dont tend to use the wedge setup asked about but it seems like this has turned into a general setup tactics thread anyway. I'll issue the long post warning now 
Personally I favour the following setup:
| Code: | ____ _______ ____
|....|.x.x.x.|....|
|..x.|.......|.x..|
|.x..|x.x.x.x|..x.|
|....|.......|....| |
This setup has evolved a bit from various ideas I've had over my time at FUMBBL. I use variations of it for pretty much all teams and I've found it to suit me quite well. Heres some of the general reasoning for it:
- The first thing to note is that there are only 3 players on the LOS, this may be an obvious thing to do but its worth pointing out, this is to minimise the number of players they can hurt for "free". These players are invariably players that I can afford to lose, unskilled linemen or those with least value to me.
- The next thing to point out is that its quite a forward setup, relatively aggressive. I like this because it lets me pressure the ball earlier (especially in the case of a blitz) which is great, also notice that it will force your opponent to push forward a bit harder at some point because it gives them less space initially.
- Notice that it covers the whole of the pitch. Either an opponent has to try and sweep through my team (ideal as I surround them and pick them apart) or they have to blitz one of your wide players which actually leaves them very little space and a sort of squashed looking formation that begs to be mugged and surfed. If your inner wide zone players have guard this can make a wide zone attack even tougher, the same is true if your outer widezone players have sidestep.
- Your back row can initially reach/blitz every square in your own half apart from your endzone (assuming Ma 6). This lets you keep the agressive forward attack even against rat/woodie teams (although it isnt the optimum defence if you just need to prevent a single two turner to win the game).
- Fouling happens, the setup I described dosent leave you too open for a really good foul.... its possible to do one but if it happens then it will leave your opponent out of position and allow you to hand out an equally harsh (if not better) foul and/or let you get into a better position for taking the ball off them.
- Quick Snap happens. Not so many people setup expecting to quicksnap though, certainly not totally focused on it. I believe that the advantage you gain from being forward on every other kickoff result (especially blitz) outweighs the potential disadvantage of quicksnap which is recoverable anyway.
- Seperating my players potentially grants free chainblocks but it also ties up more opposing players and forces my opponent to setup more widely. Sometimes I increase the seperation to cover the whole scrimmage but I find that I dont do this often as it forces my opponent to set up too wide.... I want to seperate their players out a bit but I dont want them to impede my own offence. Potentially they can knock your LOS over with only 4 players but if they do that then they are likely sacrificing followup moves etc.
I do tend to vary the setup a bit depending on my own team and my opponents. If my opponent has no frenzied players then I move the outside widezone player forward a square to keep up the aggressive nature of the setup and further diminish their options (especially fouling). As I mentioned before I sometimes alter the spread of the LOS players. If I am set against a weak, moderately fast team then sometimes I move the whole back row forward one square to encourage a blocking war (if I think I'll win) this should be approached with caution though.
I nearly always try to set up a blanced defence with equal amounts of tackle on each side etc. This dosent mean symetry, just a power balance.
Recently I've been using Vampires, Dark Elves, and Chaos Dwarfs the most although I do play or have played most other teams. Vampires are almost certainly the key influence on this setup which might explain it peculiarity (if vets think its peculiar). To give some sort of idea about how I actually use this in practice I thought I'd give a diagram for each racial setup with a few comments because a description of where to put players is a bit rubbish with no indication of what players to put where.
Vampires:
| Code: | ____ _______ ____
|....|.x.x.x.|....|
|..v.|.......|.v..|
|.x..|x.x.x.x|..x.|
|....|.......|....| |
v= vampire, x = other
I like my vampires forward where they can strike out a bit further, this is important because they are fantastic at striking out but relatively slow (Ma 6). Any additional vampires tend to go on the back row, usually the corners. Usually I team up the worst vampire with the best and so on to balance the setup. Kicker and guard thralls take up the remaining slots in the back row and the remaining places are filled out with DP/block/unskilled thralls (unskilled go on the LOS). I find that quite a few thralls are often then free to move, crucially it costs them position to tie up your central guards.
Dark Elves:
| Code: | ____ _______ ____
|....|.x.x.x.|....|
|..x.|.......|.x..|
|.x..|b.x.x.b|..x.|
|....|.......|....| |
Very similar approach to the one that I use with vampires except that I seldom move the outside widezone players forward a square and that I tend to keep my key strikers on the corners of the back row. Again I like to keep the guards central but this time the meat of the team tends to be in the back row where it can get to virtually anywhere. the inside widezone players are invariably dodgers or blodgers, sometimes blodge blitzers but rarely the best blitzers. One issue I've found with dark elves is that its very tough to work out where to insert the kick skill.
Chaos Dwarfs:
| Code: | ____ _______ ____
|....|x..x..x|....|
|..x.|.......|.x..|
|.h..|h..m..h|..h.|
|....|...x...|....| |
x = chaos dwarf blocker, h = hobgoblin/centaur, m = minotaur
I really like my minotaur and I think this setup uses him to the max. I spread the chaos dwarfs right across the scrimmage to help spread my opponent out and to help cover the pitch, I know that I'm not going for a quick rush on the ball. They are chaos dwarfs rather than hobgoblins because the chaos dwarfs are just so much harder to remove from the pitch with the initial blocks.keeping the 6th chaos dwarf back means that I can place the guard where I want to after my opponents opening turn. The whole idea is to bog your opponent down with the chaos dwarfs (wherever they strike) and then use the other elements of your team to assist them and prevent a score. I wont go into the minotaur in detail here but very roughly his job is to blitz (with 3D) right into the middle of the action, having a minotaur break your lines backed up by chaos dwarfs (lots of guard) can be a crippling blow. Bull centaurs are likely placed either in place of the back chaos dwarf or in place of the central hobgoblins.
I also use similar variations of this whenever I have a player that I really need to protect or if I have a player that I really want to be free to move in my turn. A good example of a fre play I like to be able to move is my kroxigor... a fast, strong guard with prehensile tail is a handy thing to be able to position after your opponent has made their opening move. This player can potentially be tied up but if your opponent does so they probably put themselves out of position doing it.
The end, hope that helps someone somewhere  |
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Pro511
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
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| Posted:
May 26, 2008 - 17:52 |
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That looks very much like the setup that I've been running for years and was posted in my first post. I started dropping my my flanks back a row. Maybe I'll start pushing them up again.
Your logic for setting up that way is exactly the same as mine. Separating the front 3 to commit more players, good "thrower rush" potential, etc..
It really worries me that I so often agree with Silly Sod. 
 |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
May 26, 2008 - 18:00 |
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The only thing I don't like about your setup, SillySod, is that in case of a Quicksnap you get 5 blocks against for free instead of three.
The rest makes sense.
But again, what do I know? I think the Hellfish standard setup is the worst in all Fumbbl. In fact, it's so bad I don't even dare to post it here  |
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Pro511
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
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| Posted:
May 26, 2008 - 18:24 |
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I think that's why I dropped my flanks back. Also because dropping it back protects the outside player (let's say the V in your vampire setup) from getting too many assists against. Right now you can get two assists. (The B position in your DE setup would shield the second assist on him.) |
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Pro511
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
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May 28, 2008 - 02:35 |
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It's nice to have good advice immediately put to good use. I've changed my initial front 3 setup to ooxxxoo for my Amazons and it seems perfect for them. The fact that all 3 have dodge and only get one block I've been finding that only 2/3 of them are put down on turn 1. That's a huge improvement. I'm sure if I spread them, they'd be all down (though my opponent would have to commit more guys as SS and I said.)
For linewomen with dodge, three in a row seem to be mandatory. I'll probably still spread out for my other teams but will certainly keep it condensed with my 'zons.
Thanks all. I'm learnin' I'm learnin'... |
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zenbitz
Joined: Aug 30, 2008
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| Posted:
Sep 04, 2008 - 00:40 |
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These are all defensive setups right? What about offensive (recieving) vs. a wide / wedge. |
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funnyfingers
Joined: Nov 13, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 04, 2008 - 01:17 |
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I think the 3 in the middle make it so people can't repeated hit the same guy that the fail to knock down. Spreading them out lets you get like 3 hits on each player. COuld be fine if your line has block and the opponent is short on blockers as they could burn a reroll. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 04, 2008 - 08:52 |
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| zenbitz wrote: | | These are all defensive setups right? What about offensive (recieving) vs. a wide / wedge. |
Well, people don't generally define specific offensive set-ups since the exact details of which player goes where are far less important as most of the time you get to act first. However, there are a few general guidelines, I suppose:
The main thing to ask vs a narrow (wedge) set-up is how much of that space on the flanks they've ceded to you you want to grab. This in turn decides how many of your players you set up to rush into that space. In other words, they've seemingly made it easy for you to score in two turns - but do you actually want to (try)?
In addition, if they have Kick (or even if they don't - they can always just get lucky), you have to consider what will happen if they kick deep to the corner opposite the flank you decide to attack down. If you have great ball-handling ability, this isn't a problem. If not, you may find that your ball-carrier and his support end up a long way from your main force that's hitting that flank.
Against a wide set-up, the main problem is that there are often not many great routes for breaking a path through. So first you need to ask if you want to attempt to do so at all, or instead just concentrate on hitting things and securing the ball.
If the team setting up wide is very fast, you need to be very aware of the danger of a Blitz!, or a pseudo-Blitz! (that is, a situation where you fail an early roll in your first turn, effectively giving your opponent a Blitz!-like situation). Are you going to block all the routes into your half, or put good players deep to help try and regain the ball if they get to it? Or both?
If the team setting up wide is very slow (eg, Zombies or Longbeards on the flanks) you may want to consider concentrating on one flank, as this may allow you to get a significant local numerical advantage while those players hobble back towards the play. (Watch out for a short kick to the flank you've refused though.) |
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SillySod
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 04, 2008 - 15:53 |
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Solid advice from Pac. There are some more things I'd think about when setting up offensively. Some of these you need to work out for yourself:
- is there a player you want to blitz and foul, how viable is this (assists) and how are you going to achieve it?
- do you want to tie your opponent up and attempt to initiate a blocking war or do you want to avoid giving your opponent any "free" blocks?
- do your players who are unmarked but on the front line (especially the wide zones) really need to be there or can you afford for them to be a square back. Perfect defence can be alot tougher to cope with if you've really stacked your players along the line.
The other thing that I really think about is frenzy. Watch out for an opponent making a mistake and leaving a player where you can ush them off the pitch in the first turn. There are two ordinary ways to do this but with a quicksnap (think about what you could do if this happens) or some inventiveness there are about a dozen others.
Direct Surf:
| Code: | |....|.
|....|.
|.xx.|.
|.gf.|.
---- -
|....|.
|....|. |
g = guarder, f = frenzy, x = their players
Simply move your guard up so you're going to get two dice and then blitz with the frenzy. Hit the outside player, push them next to the guarder again, and then into the crowd. You wont get this opportunity often but seize it when you do.
Slightly fancy surf:
| Code: | |..f.|.
|..x.|.
|v.gx|.
|....|.
---- -
|.v..|.
|....|. |
x = their players, f = frenzy dude, g = your guard, v = your other players
Here you are looking atblitzing their outside player with your frenzy from the position shown. You push them twice diagonally towards your half and the sideline. That then sets up a simple block from the player in your half to push them into the crowd. A nice feature of this is that although you expose a player by moving them to the sideline the frenzy blitz will automatically cover this for you.
Using variations on these you prevent people from using alot of very effective and common setups (or if they sue them you punish them). If you have vampires then you can really start to mess with peoples setups  |
_________________
Putting the "eh?" back into Sexeh.
"There are those to whom knowledge is a shield. There are those to whom it is a weapon. Neither view is balanced." |
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Pro511
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 04, 2008 - 16:30 |
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Something that I currently am struggling with/thinking about is when to take risks on setups.
I feel very comfortable setting up offence on turn 1. Or even turn 9.
If you're down one on turn 16, it's obvious you need a two turner (and might even set up in an "If they roll blitz, I'll just lose" formation) But what about turn 15 or 14? What if it's tied?
It's especially tricky when playing in tournaments. If tied, do I want to try to score and risk them scoring? Or play it safer and just concentrate on breaking stuff take it to OT?
I think all of these factors, accompanied with how many guys you've got on each side of the pitch can make life complicated.
Those 9 vs. 8 setups are even trickier in my opinion. |
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Previously intelligent. |
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Pro511
Joined: Aug 14, 2006
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2008 - 01:24 |
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Lol, just saw this game:
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=1444488
If your opponent has a catcher that's also a "one turner", setting up in a wedge and letting them just run down the field is probably a less effective strategy. Though it will get you the "most scores in a game" award if both players have one turners. |
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Brad
Joined: May 16, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2008 - 03:47 |
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| Pro511 wrote: |
If your opponent has a catcher that's also a "one turner", setting up in a wedge and letting them just run down the field is probably a less effective strategy. Though it will get you the "most scores in a game" award if both players have one turners. |
THis is perhaps one of the major reasons I prefer a narrow wedge, especially with MV6 teams. If Elves or Skaven want an easy one or two turn score, I won't even try stop them, but having most of my defence back and central means I can make it much more difficult for them to stall, at least not without opening themsleves up for some good MB/Tackle and Foul work from my Blitzers and DP Linos. This then leaves me with a solid 5 turns for my own offence, and hopefully the full 8 next half.
Narrow vs Wide is really a Time management choice in my books. |
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