xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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 Posted:
Nov 20, 2012 - 22:27 |
 
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But it might be at least partly due to novelty, with the new client arriving just before the Necromiser. I'm not convinced a weapon for every team is right. And I think you may need to look at team popularity again in a little while, after the 'ooh, shiny new toys' factor has worn off... |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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Nov 20, 2012 - 22:30 |
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| MisterFurious wrote: | | WhatBall wrote: | The "uncool" teams: Eshin, Skinks, Faeries, Gnoblars, and Pygmies.
What would you do to make them more attractive to play? Are they missing a positional that fluff dictates should be there? Is it they are just bad teams to win with? I like all the icons for these ones, can't believe it is visual disapproval. |
What are they missing? Bombs, Balls, and Chainsaws! I'm of the opinion that EVERY stunty team needs at least some kind of secret weapon on the roster! Note that the top five teams all have bombs and/or chainsaws and Forest Goblins have lots of stabbers. I don't think that's coincidence. |
Completely agree that they are missing something, but not just a weapon.
There are play mechanics that could really be expanded upon thanks to CRP.
Here are the following 'schticks' that could be viable for a team:
- 3+ leaping (Leap and VLL)
- S Access instead of A Access. M Access instead of A Access
- Ball and Chains (moar than 2)
- Chainsaws (moar than 2... but do they really need to be hard to knock over?)
- Hypnotic Gaze (not just a few players... a whole team)
- Fast and not-strong Ball and Chains (lawnmower and capable of moving your own guys with -3dbs)
- Horns! Juggernauts! Frenzeh!!!
- Fend, Wrestle, and Grab
- Decay 
- Bomb and HMP (I actually think Skyre should get the plague mortar from WHFB...)
__Synn |
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Drrek
Joined: Jul 23, 2012
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Nov 20, 2012 - 23:37 |
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| WhatBall wrote: | | The Forest Goblins are at the top of the list, probably aided greatly by them being them best at denying scores. This is likely down to the Spiders and the Stikkas. Some thought may have to go into the number of Stikkas or SW on them. Right behind are Skryre. I thought they would be top based on their shere killing power, but people still find a way to lose even then it seems. |
I played a lot of games with Forest Goblins (over a quarter of the games played by forest gobbos in the tournament), so I'll give my opinion on them. The Spiders are crazy good on defense. Shadowing/Tents/ST 3/MA 7 in a league where most players have relatively low movement and 2 ST is a very powerful combination, and I've had plenty of times where the spiders basically stopped drives by themselves. Stikkas are good, and they certainly contribute to the strength of the team, but I don't think they are too powerful. Against the teams that have 7 AV or higher, they will more often than not just leave themselves exposed to a hit on the opponent's next turn. Where the Stikkas are great, and where I think they show up in the statistics is against teams with 6 AV. The most played team in the tournament was Skyre, and it also happens to be a team that Forest Goblins are great against. Forest Gobbos played more games against Skyre than against any other team, and they were one of only 3 teams to have a winning record against them, in my opinion because they are a good match-up for the goblins.
Of course Shamans are also great, the general access is great and the hypno-gaze has its uses, and if you get really lucky, you can get a killing machine like the legend I have. |
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Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
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Nov 21, 2012 - 00:28 |
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Speaking about Gnomes:
-Bombs are really devastating, but other than that they require their slayers to be freed up to cause some damage. Something that is annoying is the cannon. It comes across as too fast and too prone to getting kicked out (Pen roll = 7+). I would love to see the thing slowed down (cos how fast can a cannon be?) but take away the Pen roll. Gnomes should have to TTM to move around.
Strigs:
They just aren't buff unless they get all dicey with stat rolls. You might have Block, Tackle, MB vamplings running around, but chainsaws and bombs exist and these things are AV 7 stunties. The Strig lord can be really powerful. Anything that terrifies Skyre is a good thing, but taking out the Strig lord usually means the team is screwed against the other rosters.
On the Cheaters:
So Awesome. All the weapons are fun to use and having MB access makes them capable of some blitzing madness. If there was a desire to touch, maybe remove kick from kickers (but totally not needed).
Horrors:
I mocked the old roster and saw the damage it did in the old client (buggy team) but they are actually quite fun and have AWESOME icons. I wouldn't mind seeing Leader removed. Mainly because this is a team that doesn't have expensive players, so there really isn't a need to spend any cash. I Also felt that the WA roll was too steep to even try throwing bombs. 4+ to even throw the bomb and risk a fumble (loner is awesomely brutal to the things) was just too steep when it was a ST5 capable of marking up lots of stunties.
__Synn |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2012 - 10:02 |
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My initial feedback so far:
Firstly, I'd like to see a softly, softly approach. You can always make more changes if initial changes don't work.
| Quote: | | I noticed a slight fall off in Skryre teams as the tourney went on and the G access on the Doomwheel was fixed. |
I put this down to coaches wising up (generally anyone who isn't braindead refusing to play Ryld). I know I pretty much refused to play anything Skryre after my first week playing in stunty. As soon as a Vermin get's block and tackle, I believe it's pointless playing them for most teams.
| Quote: | | The Flings and Horrors also proved popular. |
Flings are another high bashing team, where as horror fans are attracted by the bombs and the best icon set in the game. I noticed a wide variety of coaches playing horrors.
| Quote: | | Teams with games below 100 were the least popular and will need some review to see why. |
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Quite simple really. Mainly their bash factor, and also their perceived competitive factor. I think most of those bottom 5 had a fairly decent coach playing a good % of their games, which corrupts the results a little. For instance pizzamogul with fairies.
| Quote: | | Eshin probably should be a little better at scoring. |
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The problems I found with Eshin were-you don't have much choice with a starting line up. They're so cheap you really have to pack it in, to get a decent TV. Your first half a dozen games, you can win no problem, after that they become a pain, very hard and I thought, really unenjoyable. Which means to get anything out of them, you have to sweetspot them, which I don't think should be encouraged. Plus they have an unused positional.
| Quote: | | Faeries were far and away the worst despite their Strip Ball players |
That's pretty worrying actually. The games I played against them, they seemed pretty effective at the whole gaze/strip thing. I think maybe it's working well for experienced coaches who know how to play them, but not so well for those who don't.
| Quote: | | Snotlings just north of 4 casualties per game. |
I found snotlings very unbalanced. I think they need a slight tinkering.
| Quote: | The "uncool" teams: Eshin, Skinks, Faeries, Gnoblars, and Pygmies.
What would you do to make them more attractive to play? Are they missing a positional that fluff dictates should be there? Is it they are just bad teams to win with? I like all the icons for these ones, can't believe it is visual disapproval. |
As I mentioned before, it's mainly bash factor. You can see, all those teams are low bashers. I don't think it's icons. Gnoblars and Pygmies are 2 of the best sets IMO. (ok me finishing the sideviews would help).
The other thing that isn't helping is 'dead positionals'. The Stalker is dead for Eshin, and the Jaguar Warrior isn't much use for Pygmies.
| Quote: | | The Pygmies not having side views is a bit of a shame. Faeries; well, they just aren't a BB/WFB race, for me. |
As mentioned, me getting side views done will help. I have some done that could be added to the next update. I agree with the fairies. They also don't cut it for me for the same reason.
| Quote: | | Thoughts on Pygmies (they move towards the slann side of things): |
Well the fluff is based off of old Slann (or general south american indian warriors). The pygmy positionals are the Slann elites of 3rd edition warhammer.
Personally I really wouldn't want to touch any of this. I really like playing Pygmy they're the most 'normal' race in stunty. I don't really want that many wacky games that are decided by the ref or some crazy positional. I like playing tactical games in stunty. I'd also like to see normal goblins and halflings comeback to add another element to this. Giving the punter more choice on what type of game he wants to play. Obviously all out death for all, is the most popular still.
Fairies renamed to forest something is a good idea. Spirits, folk, sprites etc etc.
| Quote: | | I'm of the opinion that EVERY stunty team needs at least some kind of secret weapon on the roster! Note that the top five teams all have bombs and/or chainsaws and Forest Goblins have lots of stabbers. I don't think that's coincidence. |
I disagree, I don't really want to play a tea with secret weapons. Also they're all covered, so adding them to other rosters would be diluting the differences. There is no denying though, that weapons, mayhem and perceived winability are the major contributing factors.
Also things I'd like to add are:
*Some star players are far too cheap. I found being the underdog for some teams was actually an advantage. Igor for example.
*MB, tackle, block kills. If I don't have this combo, I'm pretty unwilling to play against it. So anything that can obtain this combo (Snotling/Skryre) without rolling a double needs to be fixed imo.
*I agree bombs can be devastating. It's not always the case though, but generally they're a bit underpriced.
*Not only do Skryre have a killer positional. They aren't using the other 2 much at all. It's really unappetising as it stands. |
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Crook666
Joined: Oct 16, 2012
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2012 - 11:40 |
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I am not the most experienced person to speak about this, but I've had my good share of blood and fun on the Stunty pitches and I'll say my opinion. take it for what it is: words of an enthusiastic coach who really thinks this is the best part of the FUMBBL thing.
- some teams are not meant to have secret weapons. some people don't like to play secret weapons.
- Pygmys are a great team. Just hard to play, but one of the best in my opinion.
- Horrors are unbalanced. 4 bombardiers with no chance of being send out by the referee, plus 2 big guys with AG4 (???) plus 2 players with ST3 plus regeneration makes them a pain in the a**. Even if you fail both the wild animal rolls you can bash the opponent to death in the starting turn, that's not fair.
- Slaves are pretty overvalued. And not so strong. Most people choose them for the bashing, but against a good gnome team like mine they simply disappear. And IMHO they are really boring to play. No chance of putting up a funny gamestyle, it's all about the bashing.
- Eshin Adepts, Strigoyans and Fairies are for experienced players. Very good teams, but hard to play. Maybe in the case of the Fairies I'd change one treeman with some sort of secret weapon or stabber. |
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ElanTheBard
Joined: May 05, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:07 |
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Okok, it's time to give some contribution to the discussion due to my experience playing some races more than others.
Skryre Slaves: Well, it's a bit clear to all of us that they are a "bit" overpowered in bashing (that means winning to, obviously), so we just have to find the best way to defuse them, manteining the fluff intact.
I'd say that the only players to touch, are the mechas. They could get Really Stupid (they are robots, so they need the help of other players to move properly, for gears, handles, and stuff like that) and ag 2 (for the same reason).
I don't know if this is enough, but sure it's a good start to be tested. And as Harvestmouse said, more and better changes could be done later.
Gnoblars: I used a Gnobar team during the Necromiser just because i love their icons, and i have to say, they really suck (even if i didn't have a so bad record 5/6/4). They don't have a specific field in which exceling; they can't bash, they can't ball play, they can't defend better then others... St2 tentacles are useless, they never work, a no loner ogre is not enough (even because, in my experience, he keeps failing bone heads roll  ). Why should Gnoblar Heros have just St1? What makes them heros? They are just 2, and they die too early to get enough skills to become dangerous...
Here we need a complete revolution in my opinion, and i'm getting some ideas, soon i'll share them with you.
Strigoyan: I have a pretty old Strigoyan team, and i can say that they don't need changes at all... simply they are very difficult to play (as vampires) and they need good dice more than other races. The lord is a good big guy killer, the vamplings with few skills can become killers (with St2 Av7 and regen, so with more resistance that the average stunty player). The only thing i'd change to buff them, is giving them hipnotic gaze, but still i don't think that is necessary.
Chaos Halfings: Quite perfect as they are, and bloodly fun. Just i don't understand why the minos get regen... they were ok without. |
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Last edited by ElanTheBard on %b %21, %2012 - %12:%Nov; edited 1 time in total |
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ElanTheBard
Joined: May 05, 2006
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:12 |
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| Crook666 wrote: |
- Horrors are unbalanced. 4 bombardiers with no chance of being send out by the referee, plus 2 big guys with AG4 (???) plus 2 players with ST3 plus regeneration makes them a pain in the a**. Even if you fail both the wild animal rolls you can bash the opponent to death in the starting turn, that's not fair.
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I completely agree on this point, horrors were always the most difficult team to play against for me.
| Crook666 wrote: |
No chance of putting up a funny gamestyle, it's all about the bashing. |
Lol, dude, bashing IS fun |
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gjopie
Joined: Oct 27, 2009
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:14 |
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| Crook666 wrote: | - Horrors are unbalanced. 4 bombardiers with no chance of being send out by the referee, plus 2 big guys with AG4 (???) plus 2 players with ST3 plus regeneration makes them a pain in the a**. Even if you fail both the wild animal rolls you can bash the opponent to death in the starting turn, that's not fair.
- Slaves are pretty overvalued. And not so strong. Most people choose them for the bashing, but against a good gnome team like mine they simply disappear. And IMHO they are really boring to play. No chance of putting up a funny gamestyle, it's all about the bashing. |
I'm not sure I agree with you too much on either of these points. Horrors may be unbalanced (there are certainly some excellent records out there), but I wouldn't describe them as having 4 bombers per turn (considering wild animal+loner makes the wyrms highly unreliable bombers), and the AG4 on the big guy isn't super useful combined with loner and no hands. I don't believe they can do more damage in their first turn than, say, gnomes, who really do have 4 bombers in the first turn of the game.
(I guess I should also point out that in the grand rock-paper-scissors scheme of Blood Bowl, gnomes are the nemesis of horrors. All those bombs against no hands positionals are a nightmare, and they are the only other team to really be able to outnumber horrors with their high armour)
On Skryre - I think the team as a whole, and particularly the mechas, are strong. I never understood why the mechavermin lost bonehead, to be honest. I think Ryld's suggestions are good ones - RS and AG2 would keep them as the killing machines they should be, but more unreliable. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2012 - 12:40 |
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Most of my games were with pygmies, and horrors were one of my favourite opponents, I had well balanced games with them. Gnomes were a much harder proposition for me.
Obviously with Skryre the problem is the mecha (and under utilised positionals). However giving them ag2 and bonehead/really stupid doesn't change my position of not wanting to play them. I think take away mb and remove S access. |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2012 - 13:32 |
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The fluff really means they should keep MB. Getting hit by something made of metal rather than flesh involves more mass. |
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Crook666
Joined: Oct 16, 2012
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2012 - 13:34 |
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| xnoelx wrote: | | The fluff really means they should keep MB. Getting hit by something made of metal rather than flesh involves more mass. |
True. Still can't see why a robot made of metal should be more agile than a Daredevil. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2012 - 15:45 |
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Great feedback all. Much of it in line with my ideas and some great new ones.
@hmouse: Yes, changes will be done slowly and hopefully smartly. No knee-jerk changes. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2012 - 17:19 |
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| xnoelx wrote: | | The fluff really means they should keep MB. Getting hit by something made of metal rather than flesh involves more mass. |
Ok, then maybe the answer is to put the general access on something else, that would also work, maybe better actually.
1. It'll mean one of the other positionals needs to be taken also.
2. If it doesn't slow down mecha very much, you can then give them really stupid (keep needing to be reprogrammed), which is very fluffy. |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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| Posted:
Nov 21, 2012 - 17:44 |
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And now that the Sharpshooter isn't carrying a blunderbuss, he's just a thrower, I could see him having G access. It'd give him a range of potential uses.
Or, instead of just putting it on the Sharpshooter for the sake of putting it somewhere, there is one obvious missing positional; a Plague Censer Bearer. Just to get a starting point, say he'd be B&C, FA, 5 2 2 7 (or maybe MA6) with G but not S?
Edit: I gave him fairly high AV to represent their toughness. |
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