Sigmar1
Joined: Aug 13, 2008
|
 Posted:
Jul 31, 2013 - 00:48 |
 
|
Eshin: No advice here. I don't play them and have only played against them a few times. This would seem to suggest a boost is needed if only from a desirablility standpoint.
Gnoblar: St1 is handicap enough. I love that these little dudes are weak but scrappy. And what is this 'fluff' argument toward AV6? These guys hang around OGRES. If they were AV6 they'd be weaker than CFlings and just as squishy. Thats absolutely no good and would relegate this newly viable mid-tier team back into the dregs.
Skryre: Keep the Mechs at AG1. If Skryre coaches want mobile mechs they should have to choose Break Tackle earlier in their development. They're just too good to allow AG2. And perhaps if a few of them went block/tackle/BT instead of the obligatory PO they would find them more useful/ fun to play. And no, I don't think they should start with BT.
FGobs: I don't see a good reason to remove a Stikka. They're very hit-or-miss, even vs. AV6 sometimes. Some teams are naturally better at different TVs. FGobs just happen to like it low.
CFlings: Same argument as for the FGobs, just reverse TV. I don't mind playing CFlings at all (at any TV), and don't consider them OP. I don't see the Flings Mutation access as being probalematic as they're just sooooo squishy. |
_________________
Badges? We don't need no stinkin' badges! |
|
baelnic
Joined: May 27, 2011
|
| Posted:
Jul 31, 2013 - 00:52 |
|
| Sigmar1 wrote: |
Gnoblar: St1 is handicap enough. I love that these little dudes are weak but scrappy. And what is this 'fluff' argument toward AV6? These guys hang around OGRES. If they were AV6 they'd be weaker than CFlings and just as squishy. Thats absolutely no good and would relegate this newly viable mid-tier team back into the dregs.
FGobs: I don't see a good reason to remove a Stikka. They're very hit-or-miss, even vs. AV6 sometimes. Some teams are naturally better at different TVs. FGobs just happen to like it low.
|
I agree with the Gnoblar I disagree with the Fgobs. Mainly because next year we're going to have a bazillion Forest Goblin teams at the Exploding cup since they went on a tear last EC (90% win percentage if you give credit for ties). However the fix for Fgobs is a tricky one, I will concede that. |
|
|
xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
|
| Posted:
Jul 31, 2013 - 01:04 |
|
Ah yeah, apologies baelnic, I thought I'd seen stats for the EC at least, couldn't recall where or when though. I'd certainly say those stats don't backup a need for many of these changes. |
_________________
 Nerf Ball 2014 |
|
B_SIDE
Joined: Apr 24, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jul 31, 2013 - 01:07 |
|
***ESHIN***
Assassin - AV7
NRs - AV7
Adepts - 35 (-5)
I'm tempted to say that all these buffs could make the team too good- but no, no they won't. This should be about right.
***GNOBLAR***
Gnoblars - AV6
For fluff reasons, I like this move. But the gnoblar team doesn't need a nerf. Without a balance adjustment to some other part of the roster, I can see this breaking the team.
***SKRYRE***
Mechavermin - AG2
I only have a few games with or against Skryre, but this change sounds okay to me.
***FOREST GOBLIN***
Stikkas - 1-3 players
I don't like the idea of any 1-3 positional. I would prefer some other option.
***CHAOS HALFLINGS***
Chaos Halfings – 40 (+5)
Hit them with the nerf hammer. This will have a smaller impact on low tv teams, and a bigger impact on high tv teams. That's perfect. |
|
|
Pentalarc
Joined: Mar 17, 2012
|
| Posted:
Jul 31, 2013 - 02:35 |
|
***ESHIN***
This roster was "over-costed" more than any other roster based on what my Stunty cost tool said it should be. This was mostly because people feared the old Eshin team that dominated. The new Eshin can dominate, but are too expensive and fragile to maintain for more than a few games. The proposal is that the Adepts would be dropped 5gp in price. Instead of dropping the Night Runner (NR) and Assassin costs, I would rather see AV7 for some durability. This represents their greater skill and status as they approach the level of the Gutter Runners.
Assassin - AV7
NRs - AV7
Adepts - 35 (-5)
I generally agree with this change, though I agree more with the AV increase than the price drop.
***GNOBLAR***
Gnoblars are very much a viable team now with access to all three ogres. With that, the general line fodder has become a little too reliable. The standard Gnoblars having AV7 just doesn’t seem right for me. They should be somewhere between a Goblin and a Snotling, and AV6 does that nicely. The Bullies and Trappers are fine with AV7 as they are slightly tougher and better equipped.
Gnoblars - AV6
I disagree very much with this. The fact that they are already ST1, dropping thier AV to 6 makes them way too fragile. . .essentially making them too close to non-regenerating snotlings.
***SKRYRE***
The dreaded Mechas took it on the chin to avoid them being uber ball carriers. I think it AG1 might have been too much and would like to see them at AG2. They are Skaven who have been engineered, so they should start with AG3 and the cumbersome gear saps 1AG.
Mechavermin - AG2
I can see this and support it, though I also like the idea of break tackle.
***FOREST GOBLIN***
The Forest Goblins have shown they are deadly at low TV, mostly because they have 4 stabbers. They also have Spider Riders for defence, but the Stikkas are plain horrifying for opponents when they work half decent. Three maximum seems like a good balance.
Stikkas - 1-3 players
I disagree severely with this. Forest Goblins drop off quickly enough at higher TV's. The Stikkas are the only things that really let them compete against the bigger tougher teams, especially after the first few games.
***CHAOS HALFLINGS***
The Chaos Flings are downright terrifying at high TV when they begin to mutate and can field crazy ballers, nasty cage breakers, and all sorts of utility players. The 35gp price tag for the general players seems a bit low and was one of the debated topics for the revamp. My thought is that a hike to 40gp would add ~50TV to a medium to large team. This is a small amount, but would help balance the team imo.
Chaos Halfings – 40 (+5)
Not terribly fond of this. They are the best mutation team in stunty, and that is their niche. I think this might be a solution looking for a problem. |
|
|
mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
|
I've only played a couple of the teams with any frequency, so I'll keep my comment to them.
***SKRYRE***
Mechavermin - AG2
I never played Skryre when the mecha were awesome. My first use was the ExC and I found that their main problem was keeping players on the field. They have a lot of penalty rolls, and their linemen are weak.
Very often I was left with the mecha and slaves by the second half. The solution there could be to make the mecha better, or to keep some of the other players around longer.
***CHAOS HALFLINGS***
Chaos Halfings – 40 (+5)
I've played these the most (still not loads though). I think this change is generally good. I though the linemen were too cheap. I think the Head Carver is too expensive by comparison. |
|
|
Craftnburn
Joined: Jul 29, 2005
|
| Posted:
Jul 31, 2013 - 02:39 |
|
[quote="WhatBall"]
***ESHIN*** Agree (survivability and team recovery has always been an issue)
***GNOBLAR*** Disagree (Gnoblar's are supposed to be weak but tough. Do the stats really indicate a nerf is due?)
***SKRYRE*** Disagree (still one of the most feared players in Stunty AG2 leans back toward ball carrying (a la Bull Centaurs) which they shouldn't be doing.)
***FOREST GOBLIN*** Disagree (Stikkas are the essence of the team. Having 4 allows people to plan for ejections or 'go for broke' in the 1st half. I think increasing the ejection would help push people away from the latter strategy. Besides they're big Sticks!)
***CHAOS HALFLINGS*** Agree (Extra TV will tell later which is where it should.) *Head Carver still needs Stab btw! |
|
|
ahalfling
Joined: Aug 16, 2008
|
| Posted:
Jul 31, 2013 - 04:22 |
|
***ESHIN***
Assassin - AV7
NRs - AV7
Adepts - 35 (-5)
I do feel this team needs more than just a couple AV boosts and a price drop. They don't deal damage well or play defense well, and they're not skilled or fast enough to make up for that.
Compare skinks -- +MA and +AV across the board, G-access raptors who can shred any ST2 player, and what's the downside? A couple less knives? And even skinks get pushed around in combat...
The bottom line is, what exactly does Eshin DO?
As other people have said, you've got some money to work with... whether it's a new type of positional or making the existing players more skilled/more expensive/more numerous, this team needs something.
***GNOBLAR***
Gnoblars - AV6
Not insanely opposed to this, but this makes gnoblars (the position, not the race) terrible. You see what happens to Skryre linemen? Well, subtract guard, and here we are...
And maybe you want the linos to be terrible... this team has a lot of positionals. But you're making them arguably the worst lineman in Stunty. (Snotlings are weaker, but have more skills + regen; nurglings are more durable but AG2...) Are the positionals good enough that they need to be weakened?
I don't know... I don't see gnoblars dominating the game at any level as is. Are they, and I'm just missing it? They seem like a pretty average team... comparable to Albion, and I think the latest round of changes made them both viable. Viable, but not dominant. Am I wrong?
***SKRYRE***
Mechavermin - AG2
I haven't faced a lot of Skryre, and the times I've seen them, their problems have had very little to do with the mechavermin (they just stay on the line) and a lot to do with the fact that their linemen get hurt and everyone else gets banned by halftime.
I don't know that AG2 makes the mecha a reliable carrier, but is it even the point to make the mecha a reliable carrier? To me, if you're going to have the mecha, it's going to fill the role of a line-bound big guy hitter... not sure it's supposed to be a primary or even secondary ball-handler.
***FOREST GOBLIN***
Stikkas - 1-3 players
I don't know that stikkas are THAT problematic... I haven't had trouble with them especially. Moreover, I have a strong suspicion that the team needs them to stay competitive at higher TVs. If they are a problem, I'd say either raising the price or dropping them to ST1 (but maybe strengthening something elsewhere?) might be an alternative solution?
***CHAOS HALFLINGS***
Chaos Halfings – 40 (+5)
No issue with this. It's a small change. I haven't been impressed by high-TV chaos halflings, but I think I've seen them/played them in a couple games where they were unlucky, and that might skew my perception. If you have reason to believe it's an issue, though, sure, go ahead.
A couple people have also mentioned that the head carver is a bit ineffectual, and I agree... yes, G access, but he's less survivable than the regular ones, and there's only one of him, so I don't know that he gets to the point where he's benefiting from it very often? |
_________________
Beat Claw, Play AV7
(Hell, I ran a forward passing orc team back in the '90s. You probably shouldn't listen to me. Ever.) |
|
Synn
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
|
| Posted:
Jul 31, 2013 - 04:39 |
|
If you are concerned about the Fgobs having 4 stikkas, why don't you just swap dodge for frenzeh?
It works for fluff and also will make people be a little more careful about moving into TZs....
__Synn |
|
|
Corvidius
Joined: Feb 15, 2011
|
| Posted:
Jul 31, 2013 - 05:01 |
|
| Duder wrote: | Eshin: Anything that encourages more people to use Eshin is a good thing. Some durability and more reasonably priced linemen are both good things in my opinion.
Gnoblar: "They should be somewhere between a Goblin and a Snotling". I think ST 1 already does this. I like that despite being ST 1 little buggers they can still play their part as linemen effectively with their AV. I think it makes for an interesting combo of stats which is unique to Gnoblar. I have not detected Gnoblar as being overpowered and think they are currently a very fun race. I am against this change.
Chaos Halflings: From my perspective this race does not need a nerf. My record with them is in the middle of the races(60% with 6 races with better records, 3 about the same and 5 worse). Chaos Flings have a 15% win ratio against me. |
I agree with Duder on these points.
Skryre: I agree with this, not from any evidence based standpoint but simply because that was what I thought originally.
Forest Goblins: they start strong but the start to get thumped and crumped once they get higher TV. Big Guys start to really mess them up. |
|
|
baelnic
Joined: May 27, 2011
|
| Posted:
Jul 31, 2013 - 05:25 |
|
| FCC Stats wrote: |
Forest Goblins - 10 Teams
15-10-7 (.625)
1.41 TD/G while giving up 0.94 TD/G
4.12 Cas/G while suffering 4.50 Cas/G |
| ExC Stats wrote: | xC Stats"]
Forest Goblin - 10 Teams
23 Wins, 10 Tie, 4 Losses (.852)
1.59 TD/Game
3.22 Cas/Game with 3.86 Cas/Game sustained |
In the FCC (exempting teams that only had 1 coach representing them) FoGo's were #1 in scoring and #1 in win percentage. So far in 2 majors Forest Goblins are more dominate than any Blood Bowl Tier 1 team. Is it possible we discount that they'd be good at higher TV because we see a team with no dedicated killer? No giant big guys?
I'd say the stats are inconclusive about Forest Goblins at the highest TV but they are absolutely dominate at low and mid-tv. |
|
|
garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
|
| Posted:
Jul 31, 2013 - 21:42 |
|
Gnoblars are weak so donn't need an AV drop.
Forest Goblins seem a bit too good though 4 Stikkas is amusing sometimes. The team has various defensive options which makes them so good. Some sort of tweak needed. |
_________________
“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” |
|
MisterFurious
Joined: Aug 11, 2010
|
| Posted:
Aug 03, 2013 - 07:59 |
|
Something you need to keep in mind when adjusting numbers on stats is that changes in stats in Blood Bowl aren't always static. Sometimes the effects are exponential. 6 AV isn't just one less than 7 AV. Armour rolls are based off of a roll of two six-sided dice. When you roll two six-sided dice, the most common number rolled is 7 which breaks 6 AV or lower. This makes 6 AV far worse than 7, which is already pretty terrible. When you roll the dice, the odds are 21 out of 36 (7 out of 12) to break AV 6 or less as opposed to 15 out of 36. That's quite a bit worse.
The thing about ST is that you get a three die block when you have more than double ST value against your opponent's player. You need 7 ST to get a three die block against a 3 ST player, you need 5 ST to get a three die block against a 2 ST player and you only need 3 ST to get a three die block against a 1 ST player. That means that a 2 ST player only needs one assist to get a three die block and that's a huge deal. A 3 ST player doesn't need an assist at all. It also means that a 1 ST player needs two assists to get a two die block on a 2 ST player and that is also a pretty big deal. 1 ST is absolutely ghastly and far worse than 2 ST, which is already pretty damn bad.
I've said before that I think Chaos Halflings are overrated because even though they can dish out a staggering amount of damage, I really believe the 6 AV on the bulk of the team keeps them in check, not to mention the 5 MV which is awful. MV adjustments aren't quite exponential, but 7 MV lets you score in two turns without doing a GFI, so the closer to 7 MV you get, the better and the further away, the worse. I think Chaos Halflings and Forest Goblins are fine the way they are. They are two teams that do very well when they are on, but do very poorly when they aren't. Eshin needs a boost because Skinks are just flat out better. They have more MV and 7 AV, which is much better than 6 AV. Having more Stabbers doesn't make up for that. I like the Eshin changes, I don't care for most of the others. |
|
|
Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
|
| Posted:
Aug 03, 2013 - 09:18 |
|
I've now played two games with Eshin and although a tiny number I don't think a price change is needed anywhere really, though the assassin could probably use +1 to his av.
The team seems to be quite good at low TV already, where they will struggle I am guessing is high TV. but this will most likely be because they don't have any G access other than on the assassin. However I am still keen to give them a try at high TV as a few doubles and they will be as good as anyone i think. |
_________________
 |
|
Rog
Joined: Jul 01, 2013
|
| Posted:
Aug 05, 2013 - 21:54 |
|
-Eshin-
Armor sounds fine. I don't think the pricedrop changes anything for the Eshin, their big problem is the complete lack of killing potential (3 stabs are laughable, especially since you generally only get to do 1 or 2 per turn vs any half-clever opponent). I would suggest maybe adding G access to the Stalkers and/or maybe (if it fits fluffwise) add something like a Rogre.
-Skryre-
As others mentioned I see no point in making Mechas AG2 besides making them a ballcarrier which they shouldnt be. I agree that the team needs something to make them viable in the second half though, but I am unsure what. Maybe better SW rolls?
-F.Gobbos-
No, please don't. THose Stabbers are already hurt enough by their Stuntyness only having the negative effect. (Or is it not intended that they don't ignore TZ when dodging?)
No opinion on Gnoblar. Unsure about Cflings, I tend to avoid them. |
|
|
|
|
| |
Blood Bowl 2024 Edit...
Search
