Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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Jan 08, 2014 - 13:54 |
 
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| Roland wrote: |
they already do in the FC, why shouldn't they be able to all the time? |
If you merge the two divisions, they will lose the qualities that make them unique, and will decrease the number of options coaches have to play BB here.
It's like the current darts situation with the BDO/PDC. They are separate entities, and they both have their supporters/detractors. Once a year they have the grand slam of darts where both groups are allowed to play, and it creates a great unique atmosphere....If they were to merge however the BDO would be absorbed into the larger more successful PDC.
My point? I don't know which division is stronger here between R & B, but I do know that if they merged one would be absorbed into the other and in essence die.
The FC is a great place for B/R teams to meet once a year for bragging rights and the usual R v B banter. FUMBBL is a better place for having 2 divisions....change that at your peril. |
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Woodstock
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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Jan 08, 2014 - 13:54 |
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the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
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Jan 08, 2014 - 13:56 |
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Because pixelhugged-R-teams with multiple hundreds-of-games-old uninjured players don't want to run into, say, roid rage babes every major. *whistles* |
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Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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Jan 08, 2014 - 14:27 |
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I wasn't far off the money with my analysis - I'd forgotten about Christer's blog. In it he says the following.....
| Christer wrote: | | The two different types of competitiveness I outlined above are simply not compatible and one of them would die (hint: it would be the open ranked way that would survive). |
Thank Nuffle (and Christer) this will never happen. The back door blackbox assassins will have to come up with a new angle to get a killshot on the Blackbox  |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jan 08, 2014 - 14:33 |
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If there were a way to activate yer R teams in B to avoid all the standoffs, that would be good. But I play R because it's a competitive division that lets me arrange good, fair, competitive matches using something other than the (IMO silly) Box matchmaking formula. Making R more like B is not the solution. Toying with the matchmaking formula could help or hurt, but just factoring for CR would make things worse, not better. Much better is to work to make sure CR accurately reflects the conditions of win/loss (I think it's actually okay at that), or make it less subject to fluctuation.*
Bah, I'd rather see a "suggest matchup" or "I'm feeling lucky" function on gamefinder, or even just an overhaul of the Instant SMACK system (which wouldn't be possible without community participation, not so much a top-down thing, that last one). Please don't ruin Ranked just because you have a limited sense of what's competitive. A formal challenge system, allowing two Ranked teams to officially schedule a game outside a tournament, would be a fun addition.
* CR does what it's supposed to do pretty well, if you ask me. The only reasons it's not a good indicator of coaching ability are that it's highly susceptible to streaks and easy to game. Funny enough, my observation is largely that the people who actually play Ranked when I'm on are the ones who don't game their CRs: the coaches I see who assiduously maintain "Rookie" status or shoot for #1 seem to play more Box. In Box you can trick a formula into giving you an inappropriate opponent, but in Ranked you can only do that with a rook, and you can't buff your CR by fooling rooks into bad matchups. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jan 08, 2014 - 14:47 |
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This site has not many users, so the current splitting of the userbase is detrimental for the purpose of finding a quick match, in Black Box not finding an opponent it's not so rare, even with 15 minutes activations.
I would welcome a merge, because as everybody with a bit of common sense knows competitive play is not about arranging cosy games against easy opponents/teams. |
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JackassRampant
Joined: Feb 26, 2011
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Jan 08, 2014 - 15:05 |
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I agree about the issue of splitting up a small community, Matt. What I'm not on with is the idea that Ranked or Box coaches should have to settle with each other's baggage. And no, Ranked coaches aren't mostly there to cherrypick. I play Ranked because I can hop in chat or on facebook and go through my buddy list and have an extra chance to get a game I know will be good, and if that doesn't work gamefinder usually gets me one within 15 minutes even during the slow hours, though I do tend to see disproportionately newcomers and legends, without a whole lot in between. I do find that I have to make "fun" builds to always get games, but if I lead with a gnarly team they get to play a lot too, so whatever.
If we're gonna merge R and B, it will have to be in a way that preserves the elements that draw coaches to both.
Box is better because: There's one matchmaking formula, not one for every matchup. People can't dodge you and putter around in the kiddie pool and still call it competitive. You don't have to wait forever to get a game if people aren't keen on playing you. You can't organize "recovery" games right before a tournament.
Ranked is better because: You can go out and get good games without some formula telling you that an obviously stupid match is somehow fair or vice-versa. You can't game the matchup formula, because half of that formula is "what the guy on the other end thinks." You can maintain an arsenal of teams and when you see someone you want to play go grab a team you think they'll want to play. You can play your friends that you never see online, in good solid fair competitive games that count.
Hmmmm… pie in the sky here.
* Merge the two divisions, all B teams become R teams.
* Add a "matchmaker" function, so that every 15 minutes on the 10/25/40/55 minute mark, you can hit a button that drops you out of gamefinder and sends all your R teams dropped this way to the scheduler. |
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Lude enixe, obliviscatur timor.
Last edited by JackassRampant on %b %08, %2014 - %15:%Jan; edited 1 time in total |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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Jan 08, 2014 - 15:23 |
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| JackassRampant wrote: | * Merge the two divisions, all B teams become R teams.
* Add a "matchmaker" function, so that every 15 minutes on the 10/25/40/55 minute mark, you can hit a button that drops you out of gamefinder and sends all your R teams dropped this way to the scheduler. |
exactly!  |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Jan 08, 2014 - 15:37 |
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| the_Sage wrote: | | I would be fine with this, but also if it also included forced diversity, balancing matchmaking in favor of each coach playing their least played race or matchup. I would love to play flings/ogres/goblins in a box format, and would also gladly accept getting drawn against dwarves, but only if I knew the same thing could as easily happen to the other guy. |
I have repeatedly made this suggestion, or a version of it.
To me the issue isn't merging R and B, though there is merit in the thought of bringing 'both sides' (as much as it is a question of sides) together. I don't see this happening in a positive way at the moment.
Therefore the key is to make one division vastly superior to the other in terms of what a majority of both R and B coaches want. Ignoring any worries about how any of this would affect majors (because I personally don't care about that)...
The proposed solution would be to force B players to have multiple teams from different segments of the racial make up. Then when activating, one team from each defined segment must be activated, and the MM will favor pairing your teams with the fewest games played.
Of course defining those segments, and deciding how many of them there should be isn't obvious to me, but I don't think it's impossibly difficult either. Leagues have taken stabs at it to enforce some kind of racial diversity, and it seems to work well enough in those contexts.
What's the downside to a system like this? Well it clearly requires some work on the MM and the site to enforce it, how difficult that would be I have no idea. It doesn't allow a coach to simply play a given team as much as they like, without having to 'rest' that team for 2/3 or 3/4 (depending on the number of segments) matches.
What's the upside? For B in general it enforces a bit of diversity. It also populates the MM with more teams (I suspect it would anyway) making more matches likely. That is honestly a huge issue for NA evening/night TZs.
For coaches in general it forces them to play outside of their comfort zone, and maybe, just maybe, breaks them of habits or attitudes which I feel are destructive to the long term health of the community.
Anyway, I may try to organize this by voluntary participation when I get a bit more time to try and set up the segments. |
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Woodstock
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
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Jan 08, 2014 - 15:43 |
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I'll save you some time licker. In R and B you will never be forced to do play some thing you don't want (except for the games you accepted/activated ofc). Diversity will not be forced. |
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Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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Jan 08, 2014 - 15:44 |
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| licker wrote: | | The proposed solution would be to force B players to have multiple teams from different segments of the racial make up. |
Same old garbage from Licker. Making players play in a way that they are not comfortable with will drive them away. Again thank Nuffle that Christer is far too intelligent to do something as stupid as this. |
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AaronDP83
Joined: Oct 21, 2011
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Jan 08, 2014 - 15:44 |
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Raise your hand if your name is Christer and you are the one doing all the programming and work on this awesome site that is FREE for us to enjoy. Jesus people! Get over it!! There are two divisions. People like to play certain ways. Having these two divisions helps facilitate that. Leave it alone. If its not broke, dont fix it. I've never heard a group of people whine more than a 2nd grade class. |
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King_Ghidra
Joined: Sep 14, 2009
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Jan 08, 2014 - 15:45 |
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| DukeTyrion wrote: | | Merging [R] and [B] would drive some of the [R] coaches away from the site and some of the [B] coaches away from the site. How many new coaches would it introduce? |
Well that is speculation presented as fact. So in that case I can state just as confidently than in the current system new players have such a miserable experience being picked in R and destroyed by minmaxers in B that they are also driven away from FUMBBL.
So unsupportable claims aside, why do you think a forced matchmaking system in a single division would drive away B coaches? Barring the proposed scheduler logic changes it would be what they have now. |
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Calcium
Joined: Apr 08, 2007
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Jan 08, 2014 - 16:00 |
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| AaronDP83 wrote: | | Raise your hand if your name is Christer and you are the one doing all the programming and work on this awesome site that is FREE for us to enjoy. Jesus people! Get over it!! There are two divisions. People like to play certain ways. Having these two divisions helps facilitate that. Leave it alone. If its not broke, dont fix it. I've never heard a group of people whine more than a 2nd grade class. |
No one is disputing that Aaron....However I think Christer welcomes these kinds of debates otherwise why have a forum at all? Besides, on occasion a good idea might crop up that makes Christer think 'I like that idea!' - the idea being discussed here is NOT one of them
Your comment about 'if it's not broke, don't fix it' is interesting. I tend to agree with you, I don't consider the box or ranked to be broke (they are what they are) but there are coaches that do, hence the debate |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Jan 08, 2014 - 16:12 |
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come on guys you are thinking to small.
Lets just merge Ranked, Box, League and stunty all into one Div. Allow teams to activate in scheduler, pick matches, jump between leagues with our teams and give the stunties the ability to challenge up against the big boys.
If we are going to merge, why half ass it? |
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