Rabe
Joined: Jun 06, 2009
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Oct 13, 2014 - 14:46 |
 
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But lizardmen need to be coached really well, otherwise they get into trouble against dwarves, too. Skinks are easily removed and a saurus or two tied up by a single blocker/blitzer each can make it hard to win the positioning game (let alone the bash game, considering you start without any skills in that department).
That being sad, I always enjoy dwarves vs. lizardmen, no matter what TV level and think that you can never for sure say which direction it'll go. Attrition and coaching skill both weigh in heavily there. |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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Oct 13, 2014 - 15:07 |
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Yeah Lizards are much more of a risk than Orcs. |
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Chainsaw
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
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Oct 13, 2014 - 15:08 |
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Go with chaos dwarves. You get clawpomb access (with doubles) on the mino/blockers. You get hitting power with the mino/blockers/bulls. You get range with the bulls. You get a bit of agility plus cheap dirty players with the hobgoblins. |
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DrPoods
Joined: Nov 14, 2013
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Oct 13, 2014 - 16:03 |
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| Chainsaw wrote: | | Go with chaos dwarves. You get clawpomb access (with doubles) on the mino/blockers. You get hitting power with the mino/blockers/bulls. You get range with the bulls. You get a bit of agility plus cheap dirty players with the hobgoblins. |
+1 |
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Tarabaralla
Joined: Jul 24, 2010
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Oct 13, 2014 - 16:08 |
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| DrPoods wrote: | | Chainsaw wrote: | | Go with chaos dwarves. You get clawpomb access (with doubles) on the mino/blockers. You get hitting power with the mino/blockers/bulls. You get range with the bulls. You get a bit of agility plus cheap dirty players with the hobgoblins. |
+1 |
This is nonsese. It's a TT league, he wont have the time to develop so far, Guard is priority for CDs and the 2nd skill is way too far.
Plus, he wrote he dislike playing dwarf/CD teams..
Lizard, Undead or Orc is the way, orcs being "safer".
An agility team will suffer a lot from constant attrition, which could spoil a lot of fun in a short league.
Make your choice and enjoy  |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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Oct 13, 2014 - 16:26 |
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I've always found dwarves to be one of the easier teams for Chaos to beat, even at low TV. The ST advantage can balance out the lack of Block, barring lots of both down results, and you also have a slight speed and agility advantage. |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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Oct 13, 2014 - 22:40 |
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This website
http://naf.talkfantasyfootball.org/tr_110.html
Suggests Undead, Khemri and Lizardmen are your best bet against Dwarves. After that, Chaos Dwarves, Norse, Orc, Necro.
Undead are a great team for beginners, good at wars of attrition, have an endless supply of cheap tough players and tend to easily skill the players that you want skills on. But obviously it will depend on what models you have available. |
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Peter22
Joined: Mar 07, 2012
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Oct 14, 2014 - 09:24 |
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The NAF has a very tournament oriented view. I guess the biggest difference is that in tournaments you start with free skill awards and 100k more to spend. I´ve seen Lizards suck big time in the beginning, with the saurus awfully hard to skill. No idea about Khemri, only played against them once, but then they were already developed (and nasty).
For the other teams, I´ve got models for Orcs and Necros/Undead. I also got Skaven and Wood Elves, but although it´s tempting to play a fast team against Dwarves I wouldn´t want to see them beaten to pulp... |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Oct 14, 2014 - 18:55 |
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If you beat dwarfs they can be beaten in a few turns. You score in their offense drive for instance - their matchplan of winning 2:1 is probably done for good.
Naturally all teams that can sack the ball reasonably easily and score quickly could actually be real dwarf killers.
On the other hand these are the the high ag and low armour teams.
I feel that Garions advice for skaven is indeed very witty actualy - but that ist also out of any atmosphere the average or beginning coach is able to touch.
Roughly (very) you have 3 options to beat them:
1. sack the ball and score and screw their win (most likely). Ofc an high ag teams or skavens job. If it goes wrong though you most probably have locked yourself between the dwarfs and are awaiting a slow and sure death, period!
2. take the fight actually and try to beat them by their own weapons, grind them. Probably cant win the mancount a lot of the times but certainly can get even and therefore screw their scoring - which should make the slow dorfs lose again in the end. Orcs as stated are the best pick here most probably.
3. Try to win by really just mauling them. Only claw teams can do this and its a thing of higher TV mostly.
I feel like Undead and Necros can fall a bit in between 1 and 2. Especially Necros with their fast and agile wolves that also can claw. But in the end more challenging then Undead.
In a dwarf infested league and as a relative new coach i would scratch option 1. completely from the list (maybe sack and win your first few matches - but you will simply get killed in the long run, period).
Option2 seems most balanced and solid.
Overall i think dwarves not only are fairly beatable but also can give a rewarding game experience: elves vs dwarfs for instance. There is so much contrast in that pairup, making certain game mechanics/ tactics so much more transparent and easy to notice - and be exploited by both parties. I also think the designers actually had some reasons in mind when creating the classic old races.
Yep, they should be played more, though im certainly not a prime example myself.
A good race to learn from, both against or when playing them (anyone who has beaten a good dwarf coach in a few turns with 2 quick TDS probably has an idea of what im trying to get across). |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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Oct 14, 2014 - 19:58 |
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| albinv wrote: |
I feel that Garions advice for skaven is indeed very witty actualy - but that ist also out of any atmosphere the average or beginning coach is able to touch.
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I don't get the joke, and I apparently made it ????
I really do think skaven are awesome against dwarves. It's near impossible for dwarves to stop you scoring and they should never be scoring more than 1 against you. |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Oct 14, 2014 - 20:07 |
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No, you were dead serious - i got it.
And you are absolutely right.
Just think it will get the average or rather unexperienced coach killed to pick skaven vs dwarf.
If you know what you're doing ofc, things will look more desperate for dorfs against a good skaven coach with a plan than it would against woodies (f.i.).
Absolutely right everywhere (and it takes some wit to understand that those races that avoid dwarfs the most probably, are actually the races who could doiminate them the most also in a victory). Just wrong advice for the OP here i think. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Oct 14, 2014 - 20:18 |
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| Garion wrote: | | albinv wrote: |
I feel that Garions advice for skaven is indeed very witty actualy - but that ist also out of any atmosphere the average or beginning coach is able to touch.
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I don't get the joke, and I apparently made it ????
I really do think skaven are awesome against dwarves. It's near impossible for dwarves to stop you scoring and they should never be scoring more than 1 against you. |
Maybe for esteemed coaches such as yourself this is the case.
For the average coach though...dwarves represent a lot of bad versus matchups - you don't really want to allow blocks since it's likely you'll get knocked down and Av7 is a coin flip in whether they are useful next turn or not.
You don't have AG4 to get guys out of TZs reliably except when you do, the dwarves have tackle.
You likely don't have any means of attrition at low TV, unless you want to risk fouls.
Also, while this is a truism of BB, you have to play very consciously of the consequences of failure in a skaven vs. dwarf matchup. If this action is a turnover, what is the reciprocal damage at stake? With a lot of other teams you have the AV or the ST or the AG or mass skills to devote less thought to those implications.
Skaven are my favorite team, but i really think they really reflect a coach's grasp of the mechanics of the game - good coaches will do very well with skaven and marginal coaches will be decidedly average with them. |
Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %14, %2014 - %23:%Oct; edited 1 time in total |
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Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
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Oct 14, 2014 - 20:30 |
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Do a 2-1 on the Dwarves. If given the choice opt to receive and chill out deep in your own half a few turns with a high MV/AG team. Draw them into your half and maybe try and pick off any Dwarves that become too detached from the main group. Then get a few players in behind with the ball and the Dwarves can't get back fast in numbers. Then score with a couple of turns to go. The Dwarves now need to score a 2-3 turn TD either at the end of the first half or the start of the second to have any chance of winning the match.
Defend with all your might in the last turns of the first half but at the start of the second half let them score, they should score fast knowing they need as much time as possible to get a turnover. Then you will have five turns to get the second which should not be too hard. Also by dodging around avoiding contact by not being on the defensive so much you might keep more players on the pitch.
Control the ball, instead of giving them 12-14 turns of controlling the ball and bashing you up. It's also less dangerous having less players with the ball than without.
what I like to call the 2-1 evade. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Oct 14, 2014 - 20:47 |
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Oh and I'd way rather face Chaos Dwarves than Dwarves as Skaven since Hobgoblins aren't very good at anything except being a 3+ ball pickup and fouling and getting knocked off the pitch. Bull Centaurs are still vulnerable and can't get too far ahead of their blockers. Also Chaos Dwarf coaches tend to play in very rote and undynamic ways. |
Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %14, %2014 - %20:%Oct; edited 1 time in total |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Oct 14, 2014 - 20:47 |
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Great comment on skaven mrt1212.
Pretty much sums up my view on skaven. And gives explanation to why skaven are indeed not the supereasy team most people tend to make them.
Very good analysis. |
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