Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
|
 Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 08:01 |
 
|
The odds of succeeding with AG3 and a Reroll are better than succeeding with AG4 and No Reroll.
AG3 + Sure Hands > AG4 no skills at picking up the ball.
AG3 + Dodge > AG4 no skills at Dodging.
AG3 + Pass > AG4 no skills at Passing.
AG3 + Catch > AG4 no skills at Catching.
So really... the answer to the question is NO.
If you can early in team development you want the Thrower picking up the ball.
You want the Thrower Passing the ball IF someone needs to make a Pass.
Assuming that you would never use a Double on a Gutter Runner to get the Pass Skill... the Thrower is ALWAYS going to be the best player on the team for Passing the ball.
I don't think Skaven is a team where there really is such a thing as a Ball Carrier. You get the ball to whoever you can with as little dice rolling as possible. And in general you carry the ball as little as possible before your SCORE. And after the score you attempt to steal in score again.
But IF you are going to have a dedicated Ball Carrier... don't you want him to have Sure Hands? And don't you want him to have ST3 and not ST2 so that a Human Lineman need an Assist for a 2 Dice Block and a Black Orc cannot get a 3 dice Block with just 1 assist.
Carrying with Gutters for extended periods of time is asking for trouble in certain circumstances. In general a Gutter should only touch the ball during the turn it is going to score OR with-in 1 turn before it is going to score.
| Wreckage wrote: | | licker wrote: |
Do you want a gutter making the pass? |
Yes, he has more ag.
| Quote: | | Making the pick up? |
Yes, he has more ag.
| Quote: | | Or do you want a player who comes with sure hands and pass for free doing it? |
The skills don't help when he fails his re-roll roll too.
| Quote: | | Yes, AG4 is better than AG3, but AG4 without a rr, since you might want to save it for a leap or your gfis or even a dodge if there is tackle, is worse than AG3 pass and sure hands. |
So maybe he is slighty better for OT-turning but even then maybe I'm better off just using some gutters and handing the ball off instead of passing it.
| Quote: | | Look at it this way, most teams would kill for an MA7 player with pass and sure hands. |
Not when he has ag3 and can ruin my offense... he can't dodge, he constantly fails his pick ups and he certainly can't pass.. |
|
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 08:17 |
|
There is a little something in the blood bowl world called team re-roll. It's an incredibly useful little tool. Unfortunatly it doesn't work when there is also a re-roll skill involved..
Unless you do 5 different actions in the same turn at once, it is pretty reliable.. |
|
|
bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 08:35 |
|
Actually str3 vs str2 does actually matter. Thrower is fine. Take leader, then block in case survives. You do not have to have a thrower, but they are quite efficient.
I have heard some "rumors" about a bashy skaven team with 2 gutters, which did "fine" at majors. I guess the rule of five was 2 killer blitzer, 2 gutters, and the 1 thrower. The rest were not protected. |
_________________
 |
|
Harad
Joined: May 11, 2014
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 08:47 |
|
Wreckage I think that is one of the points they are making. for a ottd you are likely making a pickup, pass, catch, (blocks), dodges and two or more gfis so even on 2+s the rerolls come in handy.
Personally I looked at the highest CR coaches and saw they generally went without throwers and I did the same. My record with rats is severely distorted by them being my first race and losing lots of games initially but since revisiting this team I've found the 4 gutter runners and no thrower a successful combination. I'm not a top coach (or skaven coach) but it does seem a good build. |
|
|
the_Sage
Joined: Jan 13, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 09:01 |
|
With rookie throwers, you don't protect them too much. With developed throwers, note that skaven are quite good at playing a rule of 5 with 7 developed players:
3 gutters + 2 blitzers on defense
thrower and oneturner only on offense.
I wouldn't want to waste a gutter's skill options on sure hands. And yes, sure hands and pass matter a lot, because OTTDs are a large part of why skaven are so good. On the OTTD turn, you really want all the skill RRs you can get, because you have a lot of dice (pushes, pickup, pass, catch, dodges, gfis), and only the one team RR.
Thrower only on offense; oneturner only for OTTDs (or all offense).
IMO, even my superbloaty superstar +AG thrower is worth his TV when not playing for a 7-turn defensive drive. On the OTTD turn, he provides leader (so you can use those team RRs in the 7 turns), and with KOR, sure hands, AG4, pass and accurate, he can pretty much always get the ball safely to the gutter runner without using a reroll. |
_________________
Content: Twitch / Youtube ; Updates: Facebook / Twitter
(because big banners are compensating) |
|
Lorebass
Joined: Jun 25, 2010
|
| the_Sage wrote: |
IMO, even my superbloaty superstar +AG thrower is worth his TV when not playing for a 7-turn defensive drive. On the OTTD turn, he provides leader (so you can use those team RRs in the 7 turns), and with KOR, sure hands, AG4, pass and accurate, he can pretty much always get the ball safely to the gutter runner without using a reroll. |
Yeah, any Thrower with a +stat or 3 or more skills becomes another major skaven threat and improves their OP. 8 Ma passer? YES. +S passer? YES. +A passer? well you get the idea. and with the included accurate/nerves of steel/Leader/etc availability they are hard to ignore. |
|
|
Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 09:29 |
|
 That's great. You can use that Team Reroll on the unskilled Catch and the GFI's you might need. OR you can hang onto it to be used for some other important roll in the game when needed.
In the meantime you can use the less expensive and more TV efficient BUILT IN Rerolls of Sure Hands and Pass.
| Wreckage wrote: | There is a little something in the blood bowl world called team re-roll. It's an incredibly useful little tool. Unfortunatly it doesn't work when there is also a re-roll skill involved..
Unless you do 5 different actions in the same turn at once, it is pretty reliable.. |
|
|
|
Catalyst32
Joined: Jul 14, 2008
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 09:33 |
|
Or he may be making a Block to push away a corner of a cage. A Blitz! on the ball carrier. A Pick up. A Pass. A Catch. Another Catch (Handoff). And 2 GFI's for a Touchdown.
Surely you want that Team Reroll for the most crucial roll of that sequence... the BLITZ on the Ball Carrier... or one of the 2 Catch rolls.
| Harad wrote: | Wreckage I think that is one of the points they are making. for a ottd you are likely making a pickup, pass, catch, (blocks), dodges and two or more gfis so even on 2+s the rerolls come in handy.
Personally I looked at the highest CR coaches and saw they generally went without throwers and I did the same. My record with rats is severely distorted by them being my first race and losing lots of games initially but since revisiting this team I've found the 4 gutter runners and no thrower a successful combination. I'm not a top coach (or skaven coach) but it does seem a good build. |
|
|
|
Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 09:38 |
|
You do not NEED a Thrower to have decent results
But you can take one and still have decent results
I love skaven, and I'm studying [R] and [B] skaven teams with good records, and you'll different teams. With thrower, without thrower, even a copule with the ROgre
The only things that is sure is that 95% of the skaven teams play 4 gutter runners, with or without the thrower, with or without the ROgre.
I've got my "No Thrower team" in the box (6/6/4 by now) because I lost the third of them in 14 matches and decided to try stop buying one
I've got my "ROgre team" in the box (4/2/1)
Both teams are too "young" to judge properly
I've got my "Thrower team" in my PBEM leage, in FUMBBL league, and in Table Top league, and they go pretty well (leagues are usually less "Bashy" than [B] and thus Thrower survive a bit more)
So, my answer?
Do you need it? NO
Can you make good use of it? YES, ABSOLUTELY. It save you rerolls every now and then, with only 20k more than a crappy line and you use him like a line untlil you have 16spp (Leader/Block usually); at that moment it become a decent player; if he magically reach 31spp, I should go for accurate and make a damn good player of it |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 10:11 |
|
Ok, I see that this might actually spark a heated debate, but maybe that is a good thing.
I'll quote now the part of the guidebook I'm currently working on.
| 1000 Losses Guidebook V.2 wrote: |
d) Ballhandler
aa) proper Ballhandler
Ma7, Block, Dodge, Sure Hands, Ag4, (Two Heads), Sidestep
The Ballhandler is often and should often be the best player on the team. Yet, it is also the player you want to use the least. With the quality of the Ballhandler, games are won and lost.
Your ultimate goal: A 35/36 pick up and then your carrier moves all the way to the TD-line without any further rolls.
If everything goes right he will never even be blocked. But because you don't want to take any chances you are going to want him Blodged up, so that if ever something goes wrong and somebody does land a block on him, he has the skills to not lose the ball. Obviously Sure Hands has the same purpose. But it is also extremly helpful for the pick-up.
High speed is very important because a Ballhandler has to cross the largest distance of all players on the pitch. He usually starts backfield, sometimes as the only offensive player. He has to get to the ball, whereever it lands and make all the way back to the line of scrimmage to the rest of the team. As long as the Ballhandler is not with the team, he is always at risk to lose the ball.
Once he is at the line of scrimmage and with the team, he has to deal with a tedious march forward where the team has to fight for every square closer to the end-zone. The less distance the carrier needs to cross to be able to score, the easier it is going to be to make it happen without rolling any unnecessary dice.
Ag4 makes whoever has it a better carrier than a passer or anyone with Sure Hands. Ag4 isn't actually better than Sure Hands Ag3 in terms of probabilities to pick up but Ag4 can be re-rolled and you really do not want to fail your pick up in an unsecured location like wherever the ball is at the start of the game.
Two Heads is in brackets because it basically stands for a number of skills. Ag5 is obviously ideal or even ag5 + Leap. Ag5 is better than Two Heads obviously because it allows you to do a great number of things like passing well or to pick up the ball from a tight spot after getting there. The goal here is always to further improve the mobility of the carrier and to be able to get him out of tight spots late in the half after you carefully have stalled it out and suddenly find yourself relying on some dice rolls in the final turn to get the score in you worked so hard for.
Sidestep finally is rather important for any sideline action. Using players as cover to run down a sideline is somewhat of a common strategy but the risk to be crowd-pushed like this is often a bit underestimated. Although a dodge into 3 tackle-zones is seriously hard even for an ag4, once he is through he tends to almost always get a clear shot on the ball. Do you really want to put your fate in a 1/3 chance to be crowd-pushed? If you lose your carrier you'll have a tough time recovering the ball even if it lands in a nice spot again.
bb) Passer
Ag4+, Block, Dodge, Sure Hands, Pass, Accurate, Safe Throw, Strong Arm
A passer is still always going to spend most of his time just carrying the ball around but in difference to a regular carrier he tries to retain the option to pass the ball off to another player at any given time in the game. You may want to delay the moment of the pass as long as possible because once the ball is handed off, it doesn't really make that much sense to hand it back and the reciever would need to be developed in a proper carrier too to hold on to it. So the best way to use a proper passer as carrier is to either score with him directly while the opponent focuses on stopping the recievers or to pass in the last possible moment to a reciever to then proceed to score directly. Obviously this requires the passer to be as good at passing as humanly possible and the number of low tier skills needed for that make a passer always a bit of a secondary choice over a proper ballhandler.
However, since most teams do have a passer position and that is only slightly more expensive than a lineman and has virtually no other use than to use it as a ball handler you will often find yourself using a passer as your carrier.
Note that especially on ag3 teams any ag4 player is preferable to use over a player with an actual passer position.
One of the strangest players in this context is probably ...[the Skaven Passer which already starts simply inferior to a gutter runner and not really better suited for ball handling. A point could be made that a properly developed Skaven Passer is less of a risk but it is a bit of a gamble to hope for the necessary skills and stat ups and in the end he is just this much slower as a Gutter Runner.]
|
The last bit was what I was not sure about and why I decided to contact the community.
What I concluded from this debate so far is that:
A skaven passer is cheap and has good skills and skill access, therefore should be bought on Skaven. That makes a lot of sense. I can use him as some player, or even as an emergency passer when facing a strip baller...
What doesn't make sense or doesn't convince me is why I would use this guy to pass when I have a player who can almost walk the same distance another can pass.. I mean over two turns the gutter makes 4 squares over a passer.. 6 squares in 3... |
Last edited by Wreckage on %b %30, %2015 - %10:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
|
Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 10:25 |
|
| Quote: |
What doesn't make sense or doesn't convince me is why I would use this guy to pass when I have a player who can almost walk the same distance another can pass.. I mean over two turns the gutter makes 4 squares over a passer.. 6 squares in 3... |
Because, sometimes, and not so "rarely", you make a "double ball move" in a single turn. A pass, and and handover and bye bye to your opponent that try to catch you.
When you need to do such a move, you have a pass, and two catch... and you'll want that damn pass reroll, I'll assure you this... 3+ reroll is better than 2+ and that reroll could be needed in one of the two catches or even in one or two go for it in the same turn.
By the way, I usually do not "pass" with the thrower, unless in very critical situation. I usually prefer to use it to recover the ball, thanks to sure hands, than deploy the four gutter runners in "sprint mode": screened by lines/blitzers and ready to recive an hand-off by the thrower and run for the better side of the pitch to score, usually in turn 3, unless there are very important reason to stall and I've enough player to do it properly |
|
|
Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 10:43 |
|
Ok, I think I gonna do this:
I write what I wrote and add (as usual) bghandras comment to it in quotes to remind people that higher strength is also a factor for a good ball carrier.
Then later I'll dedicate a small section in non essential player types in which I will mention a passer for the sake of passing in which I will adress the Skaven passer again and its importance for one turn scoring.
Does that sound fair enough? |
|
|
Leilond
Joined: Jan 02, 2012
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 10:59 |
|
| Wreckage wrote: | Ok, I think I gonna do this:
I write what I wrote and add (as usual) bghandras comment to it in quotes to remind people that higher strength is also a factor for a good ball carrier.
Then later I'll dedicate a small section in non essential player types in which I will mention a passer for the sake of passing in which I will adress the Skaven passer again and its importance for one turn scoring.
Does that sound fair enough? |
Well... one turn with a thrower that pickup and handover is better than a gutter that do it: +3 Pickup with SH and 2+ Catch is 74% while 2+ pickup without SH and catch is 69%)
But I find myself A LOT OF TIMES that you have to pass with the thrower but you can reach the gutter for and handoff with a gutter. In these situations 3+Pickup with SH, 3+ pass with pass and the catch is 65% and thus the chance are better using a Gutter than the thrower
But sometimes, expecially if your opponent has kick, you have to recover the ball, pass AND handover, and the thrower pass skill is again very usefull
As I said, a thrower isn't NECESSARY to have decent records with Skaven but you'll regret not having every now and then, I ensure you this
Thus, all this talk to say? That I agree with you Wreckage  |
|
|
bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 11:02 |
|
@Wreckage
The intro you cut here is OK-ish at beginner level. But in case you aim is to do a major-ready-guide, then it is not good enough. Your guide suggests that the more skill you have the better. So you completely ignore the TV aspect and I miss the opportunity costing.
To keep it simple I have the following suggestion:
1. Write an intro that each skill costs something, and not necessarily the all you can get is the best approach, but consider what you need among these generalized statements.
2. Split the skills and stats into essential and accessory. Side step is for example not necessary for a ball carrier, but nice to have.
For example a gutter with sure hands is a decent ball carrier, and barely needs much more.
On the other hand a skaven thrower with movement and strength increase needs block and dodge. A Chaos warrior with str increase needs probably sure hands, but not sure block and dodge are really much needed. Good to have, but will very rarely loose the ball even without a proper cage. Block will be there for defensive purposes, but that is all. |
|
|
Mateuszzzzzz
Joined: Feb 26, 2006
|
| Posted:
Apr 30, 2015 - 11:12 |
|
Thrower is just better/easier to skill lino. Also useful as ballcarrier if you cage/stall vs leap. Kick/leader/additional tackle all useful skills and you don't care for him if he dies. Its worth to pay 20k more since with leader he more then pays for itself and sure hands may come handy from time to time.
If you happen to get some fancy +stats it changes to excellent player. With +ag you can build good passer (i still like to carry with ma 9 in running game)/ball retriver, with +str it can be blitzer or carrier if you cage. |
|
|
|
|
| |
Elfball... where are...
Search
