Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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 Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 05:58 |
 
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@Matthueycamo I love your critical and unbiased assessment. I find your arguments new, refreshing and compelling.
See stuff like this getting washed on the shores of the forum is one of the things I find that makes this game so great. Having new people come in, always pushing the established limits of what is the right way to play.
Now what matters is to have something to show for.
I feel similar as you do about Frenzy and I think I'm gonna give your approach a try at one point or another. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Dec 03, 2015 - 06:54 |
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It's not really wrong to not use slayers on a dwarf team, it does come down to how you prefer to coach.
I find that frenzy on any team adds to my options, so I would prefer to have at least one, but if you are scared to use frenzy then sure don't use it.
I guess.
I mean, I think you'd be a better coach if you learned how to use it, but if you're happy with your frenzyless results, more power to you. |
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Antithesisoftime
Joined: Aug 20, 2014
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Dec 03, 2015 - 07:02 |
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| NerdBird wrote: | I am the opposite, I only use 1 runner and see no reason for a second as I usually build a blitzer that can be both. Also, man up and run some Dwarfs in the box and see how you do without a slayer or two. Half the time AV8 and AV9 in the box are equal  |
I tend to build one runner with block, tackle, strip, dauntless and if I swing the doubles, Juggernaut, followed by frenzy, whereas my other takes block, Kick-off Return, Leader, Fend, and dodge on the doubles.
This gives me a reliable sacker who can double as a backup ball handler. |
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sheepycollins
Joined: Sep 21, 2015
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Dec 03, 2015 - 10:06 |
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| Matthueycamo wrote: |
Maybe it's also different defensive styles that split choices too, unless it's the last turn or three I will usually purposely set up with both flanks open. Rather than spread out, all my players will usually be within 4 squares of the center row. Either forcing the quick score or pressing the oppo into a tight scrap on one side of the pitch. If I get really lucky they fall for the trap and extend the BC out too far or get a turnover halfway through their turn and he can be cut off and taken down. So for that I don't need all the speed I could bring.
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You do that if you're winning only ye? And especially not against wood elves or skaven, though other teams can 1today those are the 2 easiest to do it with..
The odds may be slim but if he never has to dodge the odds of a Ma10 gutter scoring is 47% without any RR for say sure hands or catch. Forcing even a single 2+ dodge drops that to 40% and if you can force a double dodge the first being into a tz with tackle it plummets to 26%
I would never leave a wide zone empty on defence unless I didn't have enough players to cover it |
_________________
Things I like and things I hate? I don't feel like telling you that. My dreams for the future? Never really thought about that. As for my hobbies... I have lots of hobbies. |
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sheepycollins
Joined: Sep 21, 2015
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Dec 03, 2015 - 10:06 |
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| Matthueycamo wrote: |
Maybe it's also different defensive styles that split choices too, unless it's the last turn or three I will usually purposely set up with both flanks open. Rather than spread out, all my players will usually be within 4 squares of the center row. Either forcing the quick score or pressing the oppo into a tight scrap on one side of the pitch. If I get really lucky they fall for the trap and extend the BC out too far or get a turnover halfway through their turn and he can be cut off and taken down. So for that I don't need all the speed I could bring.
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You do that if you're winning only ye? And especially not against wood elves or skaven, though other teams can 1today those are the 2 easiest to do it with..
The odds may be slim but if he never has to dodge the odds of a Ma10 gutter scoring is 47% without any RR for say sure hands or catch. Forcing even a single 2+ dodge drops that to 40% and if you can force a double dodge the first being into a tz with tackle it plummets to 26%
I would never leave a wide zone empty on defence unless I didn't have enough players to cover it |
_________________
Things I like and things I hate? I don't feel like telling you that. My dreams for the future? Never really thought about that. As for my hobbies... I have lots of hobbies. |
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Grod
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
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| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 10:22 |
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| sheepycollins wrote: | | Matthueycamo wrote: |
Maybe it's also different defensive styles that split choices too, unless it's the last turn or three I will usually purposely set up with both flanks open. Rather than spread out, all my players will usually be within 4 squares of the center row. Either forcing the quick score or pressing the oppo into a tight scrap on one side of the pitch. If I get really lucky they fall for the trap and extend the BC out too far or get a turnover halfway through their turn and he can be cut off and taken down. So for that I don't need all the speed I could bring.
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You do that if you're winning only ye? And especially not against wood elves or skaven, though other teams can 1today those are the 2 easiest to do it with..
The odds may be slim but if he never has to dodge the odds of a Ma10 gutter scoring is 47% without any RR for say sure hands or catch. Forcing even a single 2+ dodge drops that to 40% and if you can force a double dodge the first being into a tz with tackle it plummets to 26%
I would never leave a wide zone empty on defence unless I didn't have enough players to cover it |
Matthueycamo describes a solid Dwarf defence. If you spread too thin by initially protecting both sidezones, any opponent can overwhelm one side of the field and you will have lots of Dwarves unable to respond because they are too far away. I use a variation of what he describes but the principle is the same. |
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I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.
Oscar Wilde |
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Semitence
Joined: May 18, 2013
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| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 10:37 |
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| Matthueycamo wrote: |
I suppose that leads me to how I use my Blitzers. To how I play they are faster blockers who can sometimes score. I blitz with whoever makes sense for the situation, I never focus on blitzing with the blitzer and nor would I with the Slayers. Which would make them less useful to me.
Any player with +ST is sexy! |
I'd say Longshanks goes a long way to your success. |
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Uedder
Joined: Aug 03, 2010
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Dec 03, 2015 - 19:18 |
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| Matthueycamo wrote: | | Uedder wrote: | I disagree. Frenzy is important in a positional war, because it helps create spacing: moving a player of 2 squares instead of one (while also moving your own) is very good. Also it helps to set up/perform surfs, and therefore adds positional value, making all kind of opponents be wary of the sideline.
Best use of troll slayer is for blitzing, not marking. Ma5 helps with that (and that's a big plus). When you're in a checkmate position, guardlocked, outmanuvered etc.. that's when your troll slayer kicks in.
He's also the primary killer against agility, if only because he's more likely to reach fast players. And frenzy also helps with the lack of initial tackle.
Troll slayers are amazing players imo and really add something to a dorf roster. |
I think most coaches with a bit of sense end up with a player or two with SS to combat frenzy. Which greatly negates the crowd push potential. Two slayers means you have to put one in contact anyway if you want to maximise blocks.
Whilst when is a BG ever going to be at the side of the pitch? So you either blitz the BG in the center and can't crowd surf with frenzy or you stick one next to the BG to block so you can make use of Dauntless. They are two different jobs rolled in to one position, it makes great fluff as it's what one would expect but it's not the best combination you could have to make best use of both skills at once from a tactical point of view.
Same problem with focusing on blitzing with them, it's at some point sub optimal during the game where a blitz with another player would make sense but you then might have these two slayers with nobody to block wasted for the turn.
Finally one might be doing something a little wrong if you don't have a single player in the blitz range of agility teams. If it's at that stage you should probably give up and go home, I have never found it an issue. Slayers don't start with tackle anyway and probably won't get it until usually second or sometimes third skill (unless you are in a dodge heavy league) which actually makes blockers best at blitzing agility with a young team. There is no lack of tackle with Dwarves, worst case scenario you start with 5 players with it. I myself usually start with 9 because I like to get a few TDs on blitzers for some early skills first.
I don't often find myself in positions where a do or die Slayer move would have saved me. I can't remember one recently certainly not in this WIL season. Blockers with dauntless marking ST4+ guys however has happened on 4 matches out of 5 so far. Something that Slayers probably would not have not managed as well. But dauntless on a blocker and Slayers seems a bit overkill on the skill and also a bit of a waste of a skill choice.
They can be great players just that my judgement is that other players can do some of their jobs better and the things that can't be done have more negatives to my play style than positives. |
Dude if ts don't fit your playstyle that's fine. Just don't turn my words around to prove your point. If you don't see why ma5 frenzy is a goodasset for dorfs that's fine just don't go around traching how ts are useless. They are'nt they have a use and add a lot to a dorf team. You don't sre their value that','s fine but it won't make them woryhless no matter how hard you dispute. Cheers |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Dec 03, 2015 - 19:27 |
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| Grod wrote: | | sheepycollins wrote: | | Matthueycamo wrote: |
Maybe it's also different defensive styles that split choices too, unless it's the last turn or three I will usually purposely set up with both flanks open. Rather than spread out, all my players will usually be within 4 squares of the center row. Either forcing the quick score or pressing the oppo into a tight scrap on one side of the pitch. If I get really lucky they fall for the trap and extend the BC out too far or get a turnover halfway through their turn and he can be cut off and taken down. So for that I don't need all the speed I could bring.
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You do that if you're winning only ye? And especially not against wood elves or skaven, though other teams can 1today those are the 2 easiest to do it with..
The odds may be slim but if he never has to dodge the odds of a Ma10 gutter scoring is 47% without any RR for say sure hands or catch. Forcing even a single 2+ dodge drops that to 40% and if you can force a double dodge the first being into a tz with tackle it plummets to 26%
I would never leave a wide zone empty on defence unless I didn't have enough players to cover it |
Matthueycamo describes a solid Dwarf defence. If you spread too thin by initially protecting both sidezones, any opponent can overwhelm one side of the field and you will have lots of Dwarves unable to respond because they are too far away. I use a variation of what he describes but the principle is the same. |
Depends on the matchup.
Dwarfs can set up rule o'5 if they need to protect assets, but they can also do the standard anti-elf double chevron defense.
Of course if your entire team is MA4 you may not feel like it's worth it. All the more reason to have TS and their MA5 I guess 
Frankly, if a dwarf team gives one of my faster teams open spaces I'm going to laugh at them. I'm going to abuse them. And I'm going to stall out anyway.
Compact defense is not really a good choice for those situations in my opinion. I'm not going to get into the whys really, but if you can force a dwarf to commit their defense to one side of the pitch... yeah, you won. |
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Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2015 - 10:18 |
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| Grod wrote: | @Matthueycamo
Every little bit of MA helps! Going from MA4 to MA5 is massive. I also keep my players quite central and deep in defence. I still find I need all the MA I can get!
Of course it all comes down to playing style, no one can tell you it does or doesn't work for you, we are just relating our own experience.
As for caging, my cages are a far more fluid affair than you are describing. As I move and roll my cage down field, I rarely end up with the same players forming my cage from 1 turn to the next. Generally I constantly probe any gaps with my players whether or not I can move my cage into them. The more players I can have somewhat down field the easier I can make big territory gains by remorphing my cage using whoever is available on a given turn. I certainly find even 1 extra square of movement as extremely useful to the way I play. |
Depends on the state of the game. If I have 8 turns I am aiming to score T8 so advancing a square or two maximum, sometime none is fine for the first 6 turns. The fastest guys I keep as the corners or close by because when the gsp is made I want them all free to rush through. For me it's nibbley gains playing within myself before the decisive moment.
Facing a 3-4 turn drive is a lot different, then I will set up what I call staging posts in advance of the Runner the turn before with maybe only a couple of players Guarding him until he makes the first cadge so he can then rush up from cadge to cadge and linking them together. More risky of course than plan A but that's what happens with less turns with these short arses! Usually going to have a numbers advantage by that point though making it feasible. Quite satisfying actually when the ball gets kicked near your TD zone and you whiz it back in 4 turns without gfiing the runner! |
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Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2015 - 10:35 |
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| Semitence wrote: | | Matthueycamo wrote: |
I suppose that leads me to how I use my Blitzers. To how I play they are faster blockers who can sometimes score. I blitz with whoever makes sense for the situation, I never focus on blitzing with the blitzer and nor would I with the Slayers. Which would make them less useful to me.
Any player with +ST is sexy! |
I'd say Longshanks goes a long way to your success. |
Yes and no, I actually often find him a bit overkill. With the way I plan offence he usually never has to move more than 6, smash a gap on his own or dodge through to score last gasp. I did use him a bit more like that when I first got him but as I played more matches and got better it's become less and less necessary. Maybe once a season he will pull off a play only he could do. Rarely does either runner gets sacked as well. The big thing really is the AG4 pass combo with the other runner with AG4 for trying to score in three turns for the win. That's when I find him most useful. I can think of several good pass plays he has done the last couple of seasons. AG is by far the best stat increase for a runner. Those situations are not really TS dependent, it's possible because of freaky AG rolls not having or not having TSs. |
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Bazakastine
Joined: Mar 21, 2014
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Dec 04, 2015 - 11:49 |
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For me its not really surfs for surfs sake that I think the blitzers are needed positionaly. Just the threat out there makes the edges of the pitch more dangerous for opponenets and even if they have some sidestep/standfirm it wont be on everyone and the more you force opponents to have to use specific players in specific players it limits their options. (Also I love a little grab on a Dwarf team. It's rare enough that people will overlook it and risk their side-stepper unnecessarily)
This in essence can help shrink the pitch and make your lack of movement less of a hindrance. The trade off of course is higher risk of loss and over 40% of my lost players have been slayers even though I have run with only 1 for periods. To me they have always been relatively expendable (compared to the runners) yet needed. It should also be noted that I tend to try to either stop a score or force a turnover rather than forcing a quick score. Most coaches seem to atleast try and stall anyway and it has to be a pretty quick score for dwarves to usually have a credible chance to score back. |
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Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
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Dec 04, 2015 - 12:54 |
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| Bazakastine wrote: | For me its not really surfs for surfs sake that I think the blitzers are needed positionaly. Just the threat out there makes the edges of the pitch more dangerous for opponenets and even if they have some sidestep/standfirm it wont be on everyone and the more you force opponents to have to use specific players in specific players it limits their options. (Also I love a little grab on a Dwarf team. It's rare enough that people will overlook it and risk their side-stepper unnecessarily)
This in essence can help shrink the pitch and make your lack of movement less of a hindrance. The trade off of course is higher risk of loss and over 40% of my lost players have been slayers even though I have run with only 1 for periods. To me they have always been relatively expendable (compared to the runners) yet needed. It should also be noted that I tend to try to either stop a score or force a turnover rather than forcing a quick score. Most coaches seem to atleast try and stall anyway and it has to be a pretty quick score for dwarves to usually have a credible chance to score back. |
I was musing about Grab the other day as a 4th Skill on my stand firm guys. They would be great combo for the front of a cage I feel. On the opposing turn stand firm and on yours part the red sea! I can also see how it would help with surfs, Maybe thats the skill that makes me try a slayer instead of a 9th Blocker at high TV.
Was lucky to get a DodgeStep Blocker recently too. Absolutely amazing player for annoying the opposition and tying up stronger players. Last game he tied up two Nurgle Warriors single handed for almost the entire second half. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Dec 04, 2015 - 17:19 |
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You leave the corners of your cage marked?
Stand firm or no, that's a recipe for disaster. |
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Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
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Dec 05, 2015 - 02:36 |
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| licker wrote: | You leave the corners of your cage marked?
Stand firm or no, that's a recipe for disaster. |
You never heard of having two players on each front corner like so? 
for example
-B-B-
-B-B-
--R--
-B-B- |
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