BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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 Posted:
Jul 22, 2004 - 20:55 |
 
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One could also consider that TS is just an automated approximation and take that into account when looking at potential lizardmen teams as opponents.
A somewhat awkward TS is just something you have to take into account when looking for games with your own lizardman team. The same applies to dwarves, I've found. Just play up (and get potentially useful handicaps playing against a more experienced team with the same TS and a higher TR) or don't play... simple enough.
A higher TS than TR is a bit of a handicap in FUMBBL terms but it doesn't affect your play on the field. Get break tackle. Try a screen of skinks to keep your saurus free to blitz. Try different tactics and you might find a good way to justify the discrepancy. Most people are talking about low TR teams here... there's just not that much tackle out there to kill off your skinks except for dwarves - who are similarly rated by the TS formula. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Jul 22, 2004 - 23:17 |
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I don´t know, if everyone has understand the problem:
Because of this special bonus (or better: malus), a TS 110 lizzie-team is calculated as TS 124.
You have to play down, in order to get an even game and lots of opponents don´t play up, because they might be at a disadvantage.
Mojo:
Breaktackle give you another +2 ST ontop of the teamstrenghtrise due to an earned skill.
Dwarves are rated lower than the actually are, especially at low TR. Their AV9 and their skills make them deadly at low TR, when other teams cannot capitalize on a mistake, they might make.
Oh.. and skinks are killed off by block pretty easy.. |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 23, 2004 - 02:07 |
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Right, Break Tackle lets you use those sauri even through they're pinned down. Therefore you are getting your money's worth out of that movement and strength.
Dwarves also have the problem of high TS to TR ratio. There's a very good reason. Dwarves should have a lower TR than their opponents, usually, since they develop slowly.
I also know that skinks are easy to kill. They can be tough for a low TR team to knock down all the time, however. Frequently dodge means you just get pushed around a lot until everyone gets block and tackle - which happens when they raise their TR and are therefore no longer low TR.
If you really want to make an issue of it, try arranging matches by number of games played or something. Find like minds. Make a group. Enjoy the game instead of whining about it. Call me crazy but it sounds like a good idea to me. |
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Britnoth
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 23, 2004 - 05:23 |
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Call me stupid, but:
My throwers usually throw the ball.
My catchers quite often try to catch it.
My blitzers more often than not blitz.
My linemen are usually then left to sit on the line of scrimage and soak up some blocks. The key stat for this is not speed or agility or even having high strength (though of course that is a big help). It is armour. Skaven have the worst linemen in the game at this yet are rated higher than av9 orc linemen? The team STR rating obviously undervalues high armour, but Christer refuses to accept that *shrug*.
Most teams in ranked are either penalised or boosted by STR, amazons and lizardmen expecially suffer with often 20+ higher STR than TR, while other teams (dwarves, khemri, orcs somewhat) that usually score less spp per game than most are designed to be playing up because of this. Again the STR forumula doesn't take account of a fx longbeards starting skills already perfect for its role - who cares if they are slow and ag2?
Make armour give an extra 10k value above av7. |
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BadMrMojo
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 23, 2004 - 06:01 |
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| Britnoth wrote: | Call me stupid, but:
My throwers usually throw the ball.
My catchers quite often try to catch it.
My blitzers more often than not blitz.
My linemen are usually then left to sit on the line of scrimage and soak up some blocks.... |
I won't call you stupid but I will call you predictable. 
Seriously, there are some good points there but any change to the STR formula will undoubtedly be jumped on with other good points. Why not just deal with it?
I know, call me stupid. It's ok. I'm a big boy. I can take it. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Jul 23, 2004 - 10:03 |
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So I really like the competitive atmosphere of the open-league, but you tell me, that I have only the choice to either play games where I am at the disadvantage or to stop playing open?
The whole problem would be solved, if there was a 3rd condition for the +2 ST-addition. Just make it MA>5 AND ST>3 AND AG>1.
This would affect only the lizzies (with exception of the -AG bull or the -AG+MA+MA-BoB), and would bring them on par with the other teams of the same TS.
| BadMrMojo wrote: |
Seriously, there are some good points there but any change to the STR formula will undoubtedly be jumped on with other good points. Why not just deal with it? |
This is the weakest reason for refusing a change and could be interpreted as a sign, that you have no real arguments against this proposal (as I haven´t heard any yet). I don´t want a big change... just a reversion of a sideeffect from a former change.
The best way of dealing with something you believe is wrong is trying to make it right, isn´t it? |
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Mully
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 23, 2004 - 15:32 |
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| Quote: |
The best way of dealing with something you believe is wrong is trying to make it right, isn´t it?
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Christer is always willing to tweak the STR formula if you have a good arguement. Try sending him a PM as there is no guartantee he will read this thread. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Jul 23, 2004 - 15:48 |
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Thx for the advise, I will try.
But first I have to figure out, why a skink is worth the same than an elven-lino... |
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Michael_Warblade
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Jul 24, 2004 - 03:49 |
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because of Dodge the skink fails on 1/9 compared to the elven linos 1/6 meaning he dodges better but because he is only AG3 he has slightly reduced ball handling compared to the elf
Also the Sauri are rated like they are in the strength rating because you only need to have one of them free to easily blitz the ball handler (not a hard thing if you have the max amount of them) sure if you play with your sauri tied up on or near the line you arent getting their full ST value out of them but that is because they arent supposed to be all tied up at one time its the same if you aviod a tentacles player he doesnt get full use of his ST rating because no one will stand near him to be held. Your playstyle and your opponents dictates how much use your players are going to be and its not his fault for trying to tie up your big players while fighting with the skinks over the ball its your fault for letting him do so. Break Tackle is not an essential skill for Sauri I will admit it is useful but clustering the Sauri together also helps so the group can block away anyone near 1 of the sauri and he can blitz whoever you need him to. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Jul 24, 2004 - 19:22 |
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believe it or not: I really know, how to play with lizzies. But I also know how to play against lizzies and you can tie up the sauri really easy with linos and go for skink-hunting.
And to clarify:
I only want to get rid of this special 'bonus', each sauri gets, because this bonus is (among other) for having a ST4-ballcarrier, who can score in 2 turns. And you can hardly call sauri a ballcarrier... |
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vanGorn
Joined: Feb 24, 2004
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Jul 24, 2004 - 20:18 |
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The problem of the TS-formula seems to be that it doesn't take into account the different playing styles of different races.
Lizardmen have extremely specialized players. Those skinks which carry the balls down the field and those sauri which are created for the crude part of the game. If all skinks are in the dugouts ballhandling becomes a nightmare. That's even worse than undead without ghouls.
Other standard races have specialists too, but their differences are fewer than their similarities. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Mar 14, 2005 - 22:40 |
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OK.. I will revieve this thread now.
Same issue:
Every time I propose a reasonable matchup with my lizzies (134/154 atm), my opponents usually look at my TR/TS and say one of 2 things:
1) Not with this TS-diff. (That´s when I propose a match with similar TR)
2) Nope.. you will get 2 handicaps. (That´s when I find a team that won´t massacre me dispite being equal in TS)
Last time I have PMed Christer and wrote a support ticket as it was suggested - but I recieved no response. So as it stands, every Lizzy-team is rated 14 TS-points to high - that is quite a chunk. |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Mar 14, 2005 - 23:00 |
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Are you sure it has nothing to do with you being ranked #1 coach?
I find playing against equal TS lizardmen to be rather entertaining. |
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CircularLogic
Joined: Aug 22, 2003
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Mar 14, 2005 - 23:11 |
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Yeah.. guess why you find it entertaining.. because it´s like playing a team with a TS of 14 points lower that yours.
That´s the topic of the thread.
To make a point we could make a test and play equal-TS-matches with different race-matchups. I could nearly bet, that lizzies will come out on one of the last ranks. |
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Arktoris
Joined: Feb 16, 2004
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Mar 14, 2005 - 23:25 |
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It's entertaining b/c Lizards are a rather unique team. Ogres can be similar, but usually end up being 11 ogres on the board.
What I enjoy most is smashing skinks while getting smashed by sauri. I'll admit, beginning lizard teams seem over-TS without any core skills. But after some games, they become on par with their TS.
when you see my teams on gamefinder CircularLogic, ask me to play your lizards. If you are within 10TS I'll consider that "an even match-up" and lets see if your experiment holds true.
So far, Sotek's Warriors have done well against me. |
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