Kondor
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
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 Posted:
Jun 15, 2020 - 10:03 |
 
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Honestly, I love the game how it is. I love the complexities. This is why I love the Secret League teams Garion has put together.
I've said it before but we play a dice game planted in a fantasy world. If you want balance, play chess or choose to play straight mirror matches.
And Garion and Tussock are both correct. |
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sebco
Joined: Feb 14, 2005
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Jun 15, 2020 - 10:16 |
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| Frowny wrote: |
Pass Block- Activates on both Pass and Hand-off actions
Rational- Would be much less situational and more useful and would apply to many more teams.
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I like the idea but think skill would have to be renamed to avoid confusion (ball block or anything like that). |
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I like cheese but don't call me skaven ! |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jun 15, 2020 - 11:35 |
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Totally agree with Garion and Tussock. It should be pretty obvious to even the greenest noob that generally, you want be getting some block. That dodge, MB, guard, claw, tackle are pretty good.
If there is an issue it is that weak skills cost the same a great ones. One variation could be to cut the cost of some skills to 10k and maybe allow taking two 10k skills. Maybe on first skill pick only.
Skills may need weakening for that though. |
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[SL] + Official Stunty teams. Progression KO. Old & new teams welcome. 29th May! |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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Jun 15, 2020 - 11:52 |
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I actually like most of these suggestions, not so much to make the game more accessible but to make these skills more interesting / viable. Agree with Relezite that the Juggernaut buff is too strong. Dump off not sure the suggested buff adds much, it'll still be the problem that it's too risky. My suggestion here would be no modifiers for tackle zones on the passing player, and the blocking player cannot attempt to intercept (he is busy blocking). |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 15, 2020 - 12:01 |
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As an aside: a price decrese for sub-par skill could not work, because the skill slots are 6, and, even if you got a sub-par skill for 0 TV, you could not want it anyway because it would waste a skill slot. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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Jun 15, 2020 - 12:24 |
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Tripleskull
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
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Jun 15, 2020 - 13:05 |
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I generally like Your ideas. I would think it would be very interesting to make more skills viable with small adjustments.
For grab I think it should cost 1MA to dodge away from a player with grab - commutative, and I have a bunch of other ideas. Some stolen from others and some my own.
For tournament play I have made the Price Tag Rules to promote variety in skill pick. Maybe it would interest You? They have been a big succes. Note that the actual value of the skills are not the sole parameter used to price the skills. 
https://www.bloodbowl.dk/tournaments/price-tag-vii/?fbclid=IwAR2AnaDP_7zO8VaZsYQsnTCEvotvJKZBYFRmHwpuEBbcvdgbfesIQ3fHT0U |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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Jun 15, 2020 - 13:15 |
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| Frowny wrote: |
Kick- Functions regardless of where the player is standing inc. on the line of scrimmage or in the wide zones.
Rationale: Quality of life improvement. While obviously not realistic, its a game! Might as well make it easy so ppl don't forget. Always feels like a gotcha moment when you only have 6 players let anyway. Doesn't really change balance. The current version is complexity without depth. This just reduces the complexity.
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Kick forces you to take it on positionals, or to keep a fodder player out of the LoS. Allowing Kick to function from LoS reduces this tactical aspect. I'd vote against your suggestion.
| Frowny wrote: |
Pass Block- Activates on both Pass and Hand-off actions
Rational- Would be much less situational and more useful and would apply to many more teams.
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Might make passblock a little too good, especially during brawls when a single dodge might entirely block the way out for the receiver. Interesting idea, but it would need a lot of testing. It's true that as it is it's a pretty weak skill, so it might be interesting to buff it a bit.
| Frowny wrote: |
Passing:
Dump-Off- Whenever a block action is declared against a player (including this player themself) within quick pass range of this player, they may immediately declare a pass action before being blocked. The player with Dump-off must either be passing or catching the ball.
Rationale: Adds a reason for 2 passers on a team, also frees up the passer from taking dump-off, since they tend to be tight for skills (accurate, sure hands, pass, safe pass, etc.) Plus its quite a fun skill I wish people could use more of.
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Interesting.
| Frowny wrote: |
Kick-off return- Also functions on the line of scrimmage. (but players must dodge if appropriate).
Rationale: Its already a pretty situational skill. This makes it an interesting doubles pick on elf teams for linemen to run away. I don't think this affects balance much. It also avoids making situational skills even more situational skills.
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Interesting. I might approve of this change
| Frowny wrote: |
Agility
Shadowing: 8 or less instead of 7 or less
Rationale: Cool skill. Just a slight overall buff. Also indirectly a nerf to dodging away (elves), since slower players are now more likely to follow.
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Could be a good choice. As it is only extrafast players really benefit from shadowing. Making it a bit more powerful inresases the number of players potentially interested in taking it, without changing the mechanic. I like the idea.
| Frowny wrote: |
Mutation:
Very Long Legs: In addition, add 1 to movement in any turn when this unit stands up from the ground.
Rationale: Make a very narrow skill slightly more generally useful (who actually intercepts anyway? and then having a buff skill for already a narrow skill leap is a bit weird). Now it also combos with jump up so you can go even further (imagine a frog crouching for a jump). Also a buff to Slaan, who are already one of the weaker teams.
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Reasonable, but I don't like mutation buffs. They are only available to a handful of teams and the M access is a boon as it is. Making mutations more powerful or just all around more useful just widens the gap between those with M acces and those without. I don't like it on this principle, even if your suggestion is interesting.
| Frowny wrote: |
Other:
Regeneration: Rolled before apothecary
Rationale: Slight buff to trolls and vampires, who are on the weaker side anyway. Also a quality of life improvement.
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Reasonable but it would need to come with a higher apo cost or a higher players cost. You can't buff things considerably without balancing them out in some other way.
| Frowny wrote: |
Strength
Grab- Additionally, Grab cancels Dodge on block actions.
Rationale- dodge is one of the best skills in the game requiring people to take a single narrow counterskill, tackle. This gives you a 2nd option (applies only to blocks, doesn't work for dodges away). Gives some variety to who can pick it. Also a slight nerf to elves and amazons, who are currently above average strength.
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Could be interesting but it would need A LOT of testing to make sure that it doesnt turn strenght-based teams into elven killing machines. Tackle is a general skill, so for example mummies or big guys don't have access to it. If they have a strenght skill able to counter dodge, the meta changes considerably.
| Frowny wrote: |
Juggernaut- Additioanlly, cancels block on the defending player during blitz actions
Rationale: Block is the single strongest skill in the game. The only counterskill, wrestle, is still not quite a counterskill, as it still leaves the block player in an OK position (no turnover, opponent is on the ground) Adding a 2nd counterskill seems reasonable. Also an indirect buff to minotaurs and rat ogres especially who are currently the weakest big guys. Also a slight buff to nurgle/chaos/renegades, who are all on the weaker end. I think they would all pick this on 1-2 players for blitzing purposes.
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Nah. It would make Juggernaut too good. Also, Block's natural counter is not wrestle. It is block itself, which is by far the most commonly taken skill in the whole game. No need to imagine other ways to cancel block, and ESPECIALLY not strenght-based ones. There's a reason the main nerf for high strenght mb guys is "no normal access"...
| Frowny wrote: |
Strong Arm/Hail Mary-Combine these skills, make accessible to both Strength and Passing Players.
Rationale: Strong-arm is currently just worse than accurate, and hail mary is at trap for new players, but is kinda cool. At least combining them makes them slightly more interesting.
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Man, turning Strong Arm into a passing skill would turn all elven throwers into rerollable 3+ long bombers at 16 spps (two normal rolls - Accurate and Strong Arm)... HELL NO, thanks.
| Frowny wrote: |
Pile On: Instead of allowing a reroll, the player may place themselves prone to add +1 to injury rolls before the roll is made.
Rationale: Pile on went from overpowered to literally unusable. This hopefully puts it somewhere in the middle. No pile on has an KO+Cas rate of ~42%, old pile on has an injury rate of ~ 66% percent, this has a middle rate of ~58 % and also can't be used on armor break rolls.
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Claw/Mb/po is insane, no matter if you have the killer get a -3ma out of it. It was broken beyond any recovery and it would still be. I admit that the rr use turns piling on into a very bad skill all of a sudden, but making the killer prone wouldn't really do anything to address what made it broken in the first place.
As for the only skill that I ever wanted:
SPIKES (Mutation) Back in the days, it was a mutation that gave +1 AV, and as such it was useless and nobody ever took it.
I'd re-introduce it as follows:
SPIKES (Mutation)
A player targeting with a Blitz! action a player with Spikes gets his strenght reduced by 1 before making the block.
Rationale: It would simulate the fact that you can't blitz a spiky player at full streght. It wouldn't be a skill for everybody, and it would have zero impact on offence. But it would be an interesting defensive utility option for ballcarriers.
It would need testing to see if it would be too good. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Jun 15, 2020 - 13:50 |
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| koadah wrote: | | MattDakka wrote: | | As an aside: a price decrese for sub-par skill could not work, because the skill slots are 6, and, even if you got a sub-par skill for 0 TV, you could not want it anyway because it would waste a skill slot. |
If you are responding to my post, I wonder, did you read it? |
Yes, I did. I responded just to the part proposing a discount price, not to the part proposing to get 2 skills costing 10k each (started a Box game and I forgot to elaborate, sorry  ).
Mind, I like the idea of a discount, just saying it could not be enough to encourage taking sub-par skills. Second idea, i.e. allowing to take 2 x 10k skills seems better, or alternatively, merging 2 weak skills into one, Foul Appearance and Disturbing Presence come to mind. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 15, 2020 - 14:02 |
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My 2 cents:
- Each Fan Factor point adds 5,000 to TV.
- Each Half and Overtime last 7 turns.
- Claw: any Armour roll of 9 or more after modifications breaks the armour.
- Disturbing Presence and Foul Appearance merged into a single skill: Disturbing Appearance.
- Very Long Legs: as now, plus it adds +MA.
- GFI: first square 2+, second square 3+, third square 4+ (with Blizzard 3+, 4+, 5+).
- Wild Animal: the player requires 2+ to Block or Blitz and 3+ to perform the other Actions.
- Sure Hands can be taken as General or Agility skill (little buff to Stunty players).
- 10 TV skill/stat discount for Stunty players.
- Bitten Thralls are Knocked Out with 8+ (no more Badly Hurt by bite).
- Every failed KO recovery roll gives a +1 stacking modifier to the next recovery roll of that player. To remind it on TT, miniature lying face down in KO box: 4+; lying face up in KO box: 3+; standing in KO box: 2+.
- Regeneration: when a player regenerates he's placed face down in the KO box.
- Sweltering Heat: exhausted players can be set up but they have Loner skill until the next kick off (then every player on the pitch at the end of a drive must test to see if they will be affected in the next drive) or Sweltering Heat ends; Loner skill doesn't stack.
- Riot: as normal, with this change: "If the receiving team's turn marker is on turn 6 for the half, both teams move their turn marker back one space."
- Perfect Defence: like Quick Snap, but for the kicking team (at least 3 defending players must be on the LOS after the free move).
- High Kick: -1 to catch the ball if kicked by a player with Kick skill. This Kick malus is not applied if before the High Kick event the ball is already over a player (for example, because he has moved using the Kick-Off Return skill).
- Blitz!: the kicking team's coach rolls a D6 and adds +1 for each assistant coach and cheerleader, if the coach has not been ejected the D6 can be re-rolled: the total is the number of players allowed to perform the free turn.
- Throw a Rock: the target player is Knocked Down, if armour is broken then roll for injury.
- Pitch Invasion: the affected players are Placed Prone.
- MVP: D6 SPPs are awarded randomly to a player who gained 1 or more SPPs in the match. After the D6 SPPs have been assigned, every non-Legend player earns 1 SPP.
- Concession: any player on conceding team with 31 SPPs or more will leave on 4+. |
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JanMattys
Joined: Feb 29, 2004
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| Posted:
Jun 15, 2020 - 15:06 |
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| MattDakka wrote: |
- Sure Hands can be taken as General or Agility skill (little buff to Stunty players).
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Not commenting on anything else but this would probably make Lizardmen (a core race) too good. |
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Nelphine
Joined: Apr 01, 2011
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| Posted:
Jun 15, 2020 - 15:42 |
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Any thoughts on the pricing changes I've suggested? They are far more complex than some of the ideas here, but they are entirely doable with the current client. If I had some interest, I would set up a league for testing and refining the suggestions. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 15, 2020 - 16:59 |
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I don't think Lizardmen would be too good with Sure Hands as General/Agility skill.
They would still be quite easy to sack due to their S2, also, in my rules there is an indirect nerf to Lizardmen because GFI are 2+, 3+, 4+ and that is a nerf to Skink's 1TTD capability.
Instead, Goblins, Ogres, Halflings, would be buffed a bit by Sure Hands available as Agility skill. |
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stej
Joined: Jan 05, 2009
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Jun 15, 2020 - 19:09 |
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Why do all players get 6 skills? Maybe some should have 7 skills and some only 5 |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Jun 15, 2020 - 19:12 |
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I guess for balance reason, with 7 skills you could have too good players.
6 skills are already too many in my opinion, especially considering there is no Ageing. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %15, %2020 - %19:%Jun; edited 1 time in total |
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