mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | So you think we should be designing Blood Bowl on what is happening in Black Box? I can't even comment on that.... |
I know what you're saying, but I do agree the Elves are too similar. Mainly Pro and High. It feels like Pro were shoehorned into a gap that wasn't there as a throwback to old editions. I like the throwback aspect of BB rosters (Pact, Underworld etc.) but I this that one should have been done differently or not at all. They feel a little redundant. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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 Posted:
Aug 05, 2015 - 20:44 |
 
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No that isn't the case. Pro Elves were brought in as a replacement for High Elves. High Elves were unpopular due to the warhammer style fluff and that the positionals were named after warhammer elite units.
Basically, HE were everything that was wrong with the current fluff and they wanted to U-turn back to the professional game environment and away from warhammer. So PE were initially to replace HE. However that didn't quite happen.
So fluffwise they decided PE were professionally run where as HE were state run and inferior. So from that I guess they thought the PE roster was better than HE. So I guess that's how they explained it as oisting the HE roster wasn't popular.
All that's either here nor there though, basing the rules on what is happening in blackbox is laughable. The one thing Box has taught us is how out of whack TV is in the perpetual environment. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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If that's the reasoning (you know more about BB history than me, clearly) then they should have followed it through and removed the High Elves. As SzieberthAdam said over page Undead and Necros have a similar problem, though not as much I don't think. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Aug 05, 2015 - 22:24 |
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I would absolutely, competitively use a stabber as a runner if the other parameters are right. Why? Cause cant cause a turnover with a block-stab, thus no chance of turnover. And if that fails, then the rest could blitz or block the target away from the carrier. So it could be a great idea if you could fix it for that purpose. Basically a carrier/sweeper. I would personally forget about the shadowing aspect. Stab, and decent movement are enough. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Aug 05, 2015 - 22:26 |
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| mister__joshua wrote: | | If that's the reasoning (you know more about BB history than me, clearly) then they should have followed it through and removed the High Elves. As SzieberthAdam said over page Undead and Necros have a similar problem, though not as much I don't think. |
Just remove the skeleton from undead, and then you can do whatever you want with skeletons for khemris without compromising anything. |
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SquirrelDude
Joined: Mar 22, 2015
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Aug 06, 2015 - 05:26 |
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| bghandras wrote: | | I think removing tackle from dorfs and price increase of amazons do a great job toward balance. I don't feel amazon as too good under those circumstances. |
I personally like the idea of giving them more fend instead of dodge, and then maybe give the team agility access on normals.
Is there a reason that Zon's don't have Agi access on normals? |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Aug 06, 2015 - 08:40 |
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Because they are human, and humans have (without chaotic influence) have set access.
| mister__joshua wrote: | | If that's the reasoning (you know more about BB history than me, clearly) then they should have followed it through and removed the High Elves. As SzieberthAdam said over page Undead and Necros have a similar problem, though not as much I don't think. |
Well that's a matter of opinion. Personally I'd like to see more of this, but not as separate rosters as such but separate options. So each roster has roster build options to make different famous teams or slightly different ethnic races.
A lot of people like Pros, a lot of people like Highs. Same with Necro and Undead. I don't really see why one needs to go because the other exists (though undead theme is a bit corny). |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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I think they'd work better as options rather than separate rosters too.
I don't think they necessarily need to go, but probably do in their current form. From what you said Pros were replacement elves and they effectively do everything the High Elves do but a bit better (though less armour). I think after that they should have moved where the High Elves were. They feel a bit redundant. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Aug 06, 2015 - 11:24 |
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I'm happy for rosters to be slimmed down and given options instead. However you'd have to do a lot of fluff work so that there's an understand of each option. If you do this, there doesn't seem that much difference to be honest. It wouldn't bother me either way, but I don't want to see rosters go. In fact I'd like the 'option' of playing lrb 4 rosters. Particularly Norse and Nurgle. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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I disliked LRB4 Norse for the same reasons I dislike Zons now. A bit too 'samey'. I can't even remember LRB4 Nurgle. 
I think back in the day the ability to purchase Star Players added some variety to rosters that isn't there now. |
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SquirrelDude
Joined: Mar 22, 2015
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Aug 09, 2015 - 01:44 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: | | Because they are human, and humans have (without chaotic influence) have set access. |
Oh. Because of tradition? Aka the worst reason?
No offense to you Mr. Joshua. It's just that I don't value that type of reasoning very highly, and I would be disappointed if that's the reason. |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Aug 20, 2015 - 17:30 |
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Removing High Elves or Undead is just pointless removal of rosters. They are different to other rosters and removing them would serve no purpose other than reducing the time it takes to choose which roster you would like to use. Undead are a great roster, very popular. Why remove skeletons and make them less flexible? Ok there is some overlap with races. That is fine. High Elves are also significantly different from Pro Elves and have more background fluff from Warhammer. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Aug 20, 2015 - 18:03 |
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Also, high elves just look better, QED |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Aug 20, 2015 - 19:45 |
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| SquirrelDude wrote: | | harvestmouse wrote: | | Because they are human, and humans have (without chaotic influence) have set access. |
Oh. Because of tradition? Aka the worst reason?
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No, because that is a physical portrayal. Power guys get S access, Agile guys get A access, Throwing guys get pass access, Linos just G and Mutants get errr well you get the point.
You need a good reason to start messing with this physical portrayal/skill access, as it tells you a lot about the players you are looking at. What their roll is on the team. I don't see a good reason to start messing with the Zon access. It's nice and clean, and portrays the positionals perfectly.
I guess you could try removing dodge and then giving across the board A access, it does a similar cookie cutter thing. The problem would be they'd be terrible to start and then get a bit better, then get much worse. Also in resurrection they'd be useless. Which would disappoint some of the uber gamers on that side of the table.
They're a hard one to sort. I think some of the recent ideas go a long way to making them better though. And it's better to try softly softly changes rather than severe changes and hope they do what you hope. I really do think that upping the lino price by 10k would make quite a difference. And then add a slight long term buff to a positional. |
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Jamerson
Joined: Jul 22, 2009
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Aug 20, 2015 - 20:31 |
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Some very interesting ideas. Excellent thread.
I'm not as knowledgable on BB as probably 99% of the posters on here, but I was wondering, if zons are seen to be a bit too successful at low TV, is there a reason why they ALL need to start with Dodge?
Fluffwise, is there an argument to be made for any of the positions not to have it?
Just wondering... |
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